For Keith Willshaw...

This will probably appear in the wrong place thanks to a buggy news server.

Denyav wrote in message ...
As a result Kimmel and Short were sent a message that
began "This is to be considered a war warning"

They also added that Pearl Harbor was only possible target.period.

The war warnings did not mention Pearl Harbor as the target,

The War warning sent to Pearl on 26 November, to the Army,

"Negotiations with Japanese appear to be terminated to all practical
purposes with only the barest possibilities that the Japanese
Government might come back and offer to continue. Japanese future
action unpredictable but hostile action possible at any moment. If
hostilities cannot, repeat can not, be avoided the U. S. desires that
Japan commit the first overt act. This policy should not, repeat not,
be construed as restricting you to a course of action at might jeopardize
your defense. Prior to Japanese hostile action you are directed to
undertake such reconnaissance and other measures as you deem
necessary but these measures should be carried out so as not, repeat
not, to alarm the civil population or disclose intent. Report measures
taken. Should hostilities occur, you will carry out task signed in Rainbow
Five as far as they pertain to Japan. Limit dissemination of this highly
secret information to minimum essential officers. "

To the navy,

"Consider this dispatch a war warning. The negotiations with Japan in
an effort to stabilize conditions in the Pacific have ended. Japan is
expected to make aggressive move within the next few days. An
amphibious expedition against either the Philippines, Thai, or Kra
Peninsula or possibly Borneo is indicated by the number and equipment
of Japanese troops and the organization of their naval task forces. You
will execute a defensive deployment in preparation for carrying out the
tasks assigned in WPL-46 only. Guam, Samoa and Continental Districts
have been directed to take appropriate measures against sabotage. A
similar warning is being sent by the War Department. Inform naval district
and Army authorities. British to be informed by Spenavo."

The navy received a copy of the army message on 28 November.

Strategy and Command, the first two years by Louis Morton, (US Army
in WWII, War in the Pacific series)

page 119,

"In view of the seriousness of the situation, the Army and Navy chiefs
felt that commanders in the Pacific should be warned immediately.
Already, the Navy had sent out word on the 24th-to be passed on to
the Army commanders-that prospects for an agreement with Japan
were slight and that Japanese troop movements indicated that "a
surprise aggressive movement in any direction, including attack on
Philippines or Guam" was a possibility. [37] Now, on the 27th,
Stimson asked General Gerow whether the Army should not send a
warning. Gerow showed him the Navy message of the 24th, but this
failed to satisfy Stimson who observed that the President wanted a
warning message sent to the Philippines. As a result, a fresh warning,
considered a "final alert," was sent to Hawaii, the Philippines, Panama,
and San Francisco. The commander of each of these garrisons was
told of the status of the negotiations with Japan, the imminence of
hostilities, and the desirability of having Japan commit the "first overt
act." Each was instructed to "undertake such reconnaissance and other
measures" as he thought necessary and to carry out the tasks assigned
in the war plan if hostilities occurred. With the exception of MacArthur,
each of the commanders was also warned not to alarm the civilian
population or to "disclose intent." At the same time G-2 of the War
Department sent an additional and briefer message to Hawaii and
Panama, but not to the Philippines, warning against subversive activities."

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/70-7_04.htm

has the text on line, in this case on page 117. Strange as it might seem
the army basically sent the same message to all its Pacific commands.

So which is it ?
Did he try to contact people or do nothing

Do you think that Navy and Army units in Pasific were alerted and waiting for
Japanase to attack?

The units were alerted but history showed not to the extent they
needed to be.

Hardly a blueprint of the Pearl Harbor attack plan.

You could only say that if officers of US military intelligence had NOT told to
their superiors cleary "Target is Pearl Harbor" but they did say exactly that
since Nov,28.

There was no Pearl Harbor warning delivered to the US and the last
people to know of one would have been the army intelligence, they
were not watching the IJN.

The diplomatic cables give no warning on any of the Japanese
attacks, only that there was a high probability someone would
be attacked.

Title: The "Magic" background of Pearl Harbor.
Publisher: [Washington] : Dept. of Defence, U.S.A. : for sale by
the Supt. of Docs., U.S. Govt. Print. Off., [1978]
Description: 5 v. in 8 : maps (on lining paper) ; 27 cm.

It contains the cables, including decode dates, the transcripts
of bugged Japan-US phone calls and state department assessments
of the various meetings.

There is a project at Purdue University to put the above books into
electronic form with an index, I am unsure about its current status.

See also

Author: Komatsu, Keiichiro.
Title: Origins of the Pacific War and the importance of 'magic'.
Publisher: New York : St. Martin's Press, 1999.

Where as part of the work the author looks at the problems with translating
Japanese into English and what sort of effects mistranslations had.

So since Nov,28 they knew the target thanks to work of a few men.

No, the US intelligence system never predicted the attack on Pearl.
Some in US Army intelligence did pick up the "things are automatically
going to happen" message and then predicted the Japanese would
begin the war on the first Sunday after the deadline, that is 30 November
1941. This did not help the credibility of later predictions.

Since their superiors did not respond to their warnings one of
them,Thurman,sidestepped the line of command and personaly went all way up to
White House,with very clear warning of japanase attack with the name of the
target "Pearl Harbor".

Which work of fiction states this?

The Thurman knew it line appears to be part of the Pearl Harbor
movie plot. Presumably the system noticed it was really Dan
Aykroyd in disguise with false ID.

See for example, http://www.epinions.com/content_68513926788

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email

Title: The "Magic" background of Pearl Harbor.
Publisher: [Washington] : Dept. of Defence, U.S.A. : for sale by
the Supt. of Docs., U.S. Govt. Print. Off., [1978]
Description: 5 v. in 8 : maps (on lining paper) ; 27 cm.


Pardon me,but but by repeating official stories we cannot learn much more than
what we already know.

Kimmel and/or his descendants were given chance to defend themselves and to
challenge to official version only TWICE,one Navy investigation (There were
several Navy investigations but in only one he was allowed to defend himself
aganist charges !!!) the other was Congressional and both of them came to
conclusion that Kimmel should be exhonorated.period.
Kimmels defense were basically "FDR-Stimson-Marshall trio wanted it happen and
made it happen by witholding information that was known in Washington and
London.

All "official" facts were known to panelists but they still accepted Kimmels
version.

If one entity becomes evidence collector ,DA,police,judge,jury and executioner
the evidence that they present becomes irrelevant.

The Thurman knew it line appears to be part of the Pearl Harbor
movie plot. Presumably the system noticed it was really Dan
Aykroyd in disguise with false ID.

Military Intelligence Characters of this movie were based on real characters
moreover they and/or their relatives were interviewed by the the makers of the
movie.

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
Title: The "Magic" background of Pearl Harbor.
Publisher: [Washington] : Dept. of Defence, U.S.A. : for sale by
the Supt. of Docs., U.S. Govt. Print. Off., [1978]
Description: 5 v. in 8 : maps (on lining paper) ; 27 cm.


Pardon me,but but by repeating official stories we cannot learn much more
than
what we already know.

Kimmel and/or his descendants were given chance to defend themselves and
to
challenge to official version only TWICE,one Navy investigation (There
were
several Navy investigations but in only one he was allowed to defend
himself
aganist charges !!!) the other was Congressional and both of them came to
conclusion that Kimmel should be exhonorated.period.


No they didnt - period
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/congress/part_5.html

Quote
The story of Admiral Kimmel's administration of the Pacific Fleet and
supervision of the Fourteenth Naval District as well as General Short's
administration of the Hawaiian Department in the critical days before
December 7 is the epitome of worthy plans and purposes which were never
implemented. The job of an administrator is only half completed upon the
issuance of an order; it is discharged when he determines the order has
been executed.
/Quote

Keith

Denyav wrote in message ...

Firstly part of my deleted text,

There was no Pearl Harbor warning delivered to the US and the last
people to know of one would have been the army intelligence, they
were not watching the IJN.

The diplomatic cables give no warning on any of the Japanese
attacks, only that there was a high probability someone would
be attacked.

Title: The "Magic" background of Pearl Harbor.
Publisher: [Washington] : Dept. of Defence, U.S.A. : for sale by
the Supt. of Docs., U.S. Govt. Print. Off., [1978]
Description: 5 v. in 8 : maps (on lining paper) ; 27 cm.

Pardon me,but but by repeating official stories we cannot learn much more than
what we already know.

Let us see the claim what the war warning messages contained about
Pearl Harbor is deleted, along with the actual messages themselves,
since the truth destroys the claim. Now comes the decision to delete
the transcripts of the Japanese messages, since the claimed "attack
Pearl Harbor" message does not exist the actual record needs to be
deleted as well.

More deleted text,

"It contains the cables, including decode dates, the transcripts
of bugged Japan-US phone calls and state department assessments
of the various meetings.

There is a project at Purdue University to put the above books into
electronic form with an index, I am unsure about its current status.

See also

Author: Komatsu, Keiichiro.
Title: Origins of the Pacific War and the importance of 'magic'.
Publisher: New York : St. Martin's Press, 1999.

Where as part of the work the author looks at the problems with translating
Japanese into English and what sort of effects mistranslations had."

I suggest reading the messages, they tell you lots, things like the
maps of Panama that were so good a courier was to take them to
Japan. The ships in harbour messages from the other ports, not
just Hawaii and so on.

Kimmel and/or his descendants were given chance to defend themselves and to
challenge to official version only TWICE,one Navy investigation (There were
several Navy investigations but in only one he was allowed to defend himself
aganist charges !!!) the other was Congressional and both of them came to
conclusion that Kimmel should be exhonorated.period.

Try again, the Congressional investigation found against Kimmel.
The navy investigation found for him. By the way investigations
are about deciding charges, trials are for defending charges.

1) Roberts Commission, 1941/42 found against Kimmel and Short
2) Hart Inquiry in 1944, mainly evidence collecting
3) Pearl Harbor Army Board in 1944, criticised Short, Marshall and Gerow.
4) Naval Court of Inquiry, exonerated Kimmel.
5) Clausen Investigation, 1944/45, mainly evidence gathering. (He wrote
a book on it and gives Kimmel and Short the highest rankings in the
contributors to the defeat list.)
6) Hewitt Inquiry, 1945, follow on to Naval court, Kimmel denied access,
no report published.
7) Clarke Investigation, 1944/45 investigation into claims of documents
being destroyed, found this not to be the case.
8) Joint Congressional Committee, 1945/46, Hawaiian commanders guilty
of errors of judgement, not dereliction of duty.

Kimmels defense were basically "FDR-Stimson-Marshall trio wanted it
happen and made it happen by witholding information that was known in
Washington and London.

Putting words into Kimmel's mouth now I see. Kimmel's defence was
that he was deprived of information he needed, mainly messages from
the local Japanese consulate and timely warning of the time the last
Japanese message was supposed to be presented to the US. There
was nothing said about senior leaders wanting the attack to happen.

All "official" facts were known to panelists but they still accepted Kimmels
version.

If one entity becomes evidence collector ,DA,police,judge,jury and executioner
the evidence that they present becomes irrelevant.

I like this, if the one entity argument is followed then the claimed let
off for Kimmel is the rigged result, it was an all Navy affair.

The Thurman knew it line appears to be part of the Pearl Harbor
movie plot. Presumably the system noticed it was really Dan
Aykroyd in disguise with false ID.

See for example, http://www.epinions.com/content_68513926788

Military Intelligence Characters of this movie were based on real characters
moreover they and/or their relatives were interviewed by the the makers of the
movie.

I see "based on real characters", and I presume the transcripts of these
claimed conversations are available? I presume you have traced the
people the pilots and nurse were based on as well? Found the message
the plot line was based on as well? Double checked the interviews were
with people present, not relatives reporting hearsay 60 years later?

Perhaps the fundamental reality that the US Army intelligence people
did not work on IJN codes will intrude at some stage.

Alternatively Hollywood movies said to be fiction can be taken as the
truth, so the US has Luke Skywalker hiding somewhere no doubt.
John Wayne won WWII almost single-handed, serving in all branches
of the US military?

It sums up the "evidence" quite well when a Hollywood entertainment
product is the source of truth.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

In article ,
on 10 Jun 2004 06:05:02 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....


Military Intelligence Characters of this movie were based on real characters
moreover they and/or their relatives were interviewed by the the makers of the
movie.

Are you basing your entire argument on the movie "Pearl Harbor" ???



--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

There was no Pearl Harbor warning delivered to the US and the last
people to know of one would have been the army intelligence, they
were not watching the IJN.

Well,we are talking about pre-CIA even pre-OSS era,if you dont count FBI,they
were nations only intel agency,
BTW Adm.Kramer was Thurmans real life superior too.

In article ,
on 09 Jun 2004 15:49:02 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

1) They didnt


This is the whole point .according to the Government they did not,according to
the Intelligence officers they did and they did it repeately.
On eve of Pearl Harbor attact,even during a secret White House meeting they
discussed their Pearl Harbor specific information.
But of course White House denies even this meeting!.

Yet YOU know of this secret meeting ?



--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

"Tank Fixer" wrote in message
k.net...
In article ,
on 09 Jun 2004 15:49:02 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

1) They didnt


This is the whole point .according to the Government they did
not,according to
the Intelligence officers they did and they did it repeately.
On eve of Pearl Harbor attact,even during a secret White House meeting
they
discussed their Pearl Harbor specific information.
But of course White House denies even this meeting!.

Yet YOU know of this secret meeting ?

In the world of the lunatic conspiracy nut, a total lack of supporting
evidence is the most convincing evidence of all.

In the world of the lunatic conspiracy nut, a total lack of supporting
evidence is the most convincing evidence of all.

Apparently those lunatic conspirators somehow managed to convince even the
members of Congress.

This kind of accusations are usually the last line of defense for those who
want the things that were covered up,remain also covered up.

In article ,
on Sat, 12 Jun 2004 10:43:43 +1000,
L'acrobat attempted to say .....


"Tank Fixer" wrote in message
k.net...
In article ,
on 09 Jun 2004 15:49:02 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

1) They didnt


This is the whole point .according to the Government they did
not,according to
the Intelligence officers they did and they did it repeately.
On eve of Pearl Harbor attact,even during a secret White House meeting
they
discussed their Pearl Harbor specific information.
But of course White House denies even this meeting!.

Yet YOU know of this secret meeting ?

In the world of the lunatic conspiracy nut, a total lack of supporting
evidence is the most convincing evidence of all.


I forgot that one.
And that lack of evidence is also proof of the conspiracy.

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.