Could the Press Grow a Spine?

On 28 Jun 2004 22:08:28 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

We were sitting at the peace table in Paris with SVN, NVN and the VC.

Minor correction Ed, but I'm 99.9% sure there were no SVN or VC representatives
in Paris. But your point was well made.

The "shape of the table" was a huge issue in '70, '71--the idea being
that a four-sided table would give equal voice to the SVN and VC in
the negotiations. By 1972, the table was most assuredly round and all
four parties were involved in the negotiation.

As has been earlier mentioned here, one of the stumbling blocks was
the unwillingness of Diem regime to concede some of the points agreed
to beween the US and NVN. This led to the suspension of talks in
April, then Linebacker, then more talks, then agreement in principle
(light at the end of the tunnel), suspension of ops in October of '72,
then Linebacker II, conclusion, POWs home by mid-March '73.

Ohh, that's right. Linebacker II was a failure. Forgot for a moment.
Sorry, bout that.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

By 1972, the table was most assuredly round and all
four parties were involved in the negotiation.

According to several books I've read, only the NVN and US were in Paris...at
least at the peace accords.

As has been earlier mentioned here, one of the stumbling blocks was
the unwillingness of Diem regime to concede some of the points agreed
to beween the US and NVN.

Ed, Ngo Dihn Diem was killed in 1963, the SVN President in 1972 was Nguyen Van
Thieu whom the North refused to negotiate with since they claimed his regime
was illegitimate. Thieu was notified of agreements in Paris by Henry Kissinger
who travelled from Paris to Saigon. He did have issues with many of the
agreements, but was not in Paris. As far as I can tell from the dozen or so
books I've read on the SE Asia conflict, the SVN and the VC were not in Paris,
in fact the NVN argued until the very end that the VC were not North supported
or affiliated. NVN claimed the battles in SVN were part of a civil war that
both the U.S. and the North should stay out of.

Ohh, that's right. Linebacker II was a failure.

Ahh...now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said it was a failure.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

I tend to despise
those who exaggerate their military record. I support the many groups
who work hard to unmask the poseurs and wannabes.

then you should also consider despising GWB to the same degree. i
should hope that being elected to the white house doesnt give him a
free pass in this regard. some things should be absolute, no?


















As we've often addressed here, a war of the magnitude of WW II
required an incredible amount of manpower. A lot of that was in a
supporting role. My father, for a poor example, served for four years,
drafted as I was being born to function only in a stateside support
role as he was both too old and medically unfit for forward duty. But,
he served and rose to tech sergeant in the Army Air Corps at Keesler
AFB and then Santa Rosa Air Base.

McGovern did not go to any great lengths to highlight his WW II
service during the 1972 campaign. He ran as a staunchly pacifist,
anti-war candidate. He ran on his liberal background as Senator from
SD. He misread the mood of the electorate and while he appealed to the
core of his party, he didn't transfer is appeal to the moderate,
unaffiliated voters and certainly didn't draw from the right.

McGovern used his GI Bill well. Nixon "used slush funds" in his
political role, appropriately if not in consonance with what you might
have chosen him to do. He made his reputation in early political
development as an anti-communist. There's no relationship between
McGovern's education and Nixon's job funding. It's a red herring.

By election time in 1972 the Republican propaganda machine convinced the
weak minded and ignorant that Nixon was the warrior and McGovern the
dodger.

By 1972 we were four years into the Nixon policy of "Vietnamization".
We were down to less than one quarter of the troops in-country in SEA.
We were sitting at the peace table in Paris with SVN, NVN and the VC.
We were actively engaged in diplomatic negotiations with China and
"peace was at hand". Hardly a "warrior" positioning.

There was never a mention of McGovern as a "dodger." There was plenty
of McGovern posturing as a pacifist and unilateral disarmer.

I can remember the 1972 election, but I sure don't remember what you
described. I think you fabricated it.

I can remember the '72 election.


Given that you were only 14 or 15 years old in 1972, it's amazing you're
able to recall the campaign tactics for that election (not that I do).

I was thirty and flying my second tour at Korat in the F-4E, going to
NVN most every day. I had a vested interest in the campaign.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Subject: Could the Press Grow a Spine?
From: (w.a. manning)
Date: 6/28/2004 10:07 PM Pacific Standard Time

hen you should also consider despising GWB to the same degree. i
should hope that being elected to the white house doesnt give him a
free pass in this regard. some things should be absolute, no

The SCOTUS just kicked him in the ass 8 to 1.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

I tend to despise
those who exaggerate their military record. I support the many groups
who work hard to unmask the poseurs and wannabes.

then you should also consider despising GWB to the same degree. i
should hope that being elected to the white house doesnt give him a
free pass in this regard. some things should be absolute, no?


















As we've often addressed here, a war of the magnitude of WW II
required an incredible amount of manpower. A lot of that was in a
supporting role. My father, for a poor example, served for four years,
drafted as I was being born to function only in a stateside support
role as he was both too old and medically unfit for forward duty. But,
he served and rose to tech sergeant in the Army Air Corps at Keesler
AFB and then Santa Rosa Air Base.

McGovern did not go to any great lengths to highlight his WW II
service during the 1972 campaign. He ran as a staunchly pacifist,
anti-war candidate. He ran on his liberal background as Senator from
SD. He misread the mood of the electorate and while he appealed to the
core of his party, he didn't transfer is appeal to the moderate,
unaffiliated voters and certainly didn't draw from the right.

McGovern used his GI Bill well. Nixon "used slush funds" in his
political role, appropriately if not in consonance with what you might
have chosen him to do. He made his reputation in early political
development as an anti-communist. There's no relationship between
McGovern's education and Nixon's job funding. It's a red herring.

By election time in 1972 the Republican propaganda machine convinced the
weak minded and ignorant that Nixon was the warrior and McGovern the
dodger.

By 1972 we were four years into the Nixon policy of "Vietnamization".
We were down to less than one quarter of the troops in-country in SEA.
We were sitting at the peace table in Paris with SVN, NVN and the VC.
We were actively engaged in diplomatic negotiations with China and
"peace was at hand". Hardly a "warrior" positioning.

There was never a mention of McGovern as a "dodger." There was plenty
of McGovern posturing as a pacifist and unilateral disarmer.

I can remember the 1972 election, but I sure don't remember what you
described. I think you fabricated it.

I can remember the '72 election.


Given that you were only 14 or 15 years old in 1972, it's amazing you're
able to recall the campaign tactics for that election (not that I do).

I was thirty and flying my second tour at Korat in the F-4E, going to
NVN most every day. I had a vested interest in the campaign.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus wrote in message . ..
[recall of 1972 deleted for brevity]

I was thirty and flying my second tour at Korat in the F-4E, going to
NVN most every day. I had a vested interest in the campaign.


I turned 18 a year after the election of 1972. My number was 187,
but thanks to Nixon 'winding down' the war in Vietnam no one in
my year was drafted so I sat on my ass stateside. Notwithstanding,
what I recall is much the same as what you recall.

--

FF

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message hlink.net...
"Mike Dargan" wrote in message
news:qd0Dc.117009$0y.58857@attbi_s03...

The Republicans and their junior college instructor lackey's have a long
history of belittling those who served well while exaggerating the
military records of their, more prudent, candidates.

Dunno about a long history, but that was evident in 2000.

Consider also how the current administration ignores the only combat
veteran serving in the cabinet.

Powell should have made it clear to Bush that he was no longer
serving under Rumsfeld--or at least made that clear to Rumsfeld
and Cheney.


Can anyone remember the 1972 election? During WWII Richard Nixon ran a
Navy fruit drink stand at some South Pacific backwater supply base while
George McGovern was leading groups of B24s in daylight attacks on Nazi
Europe. AFter the war McGovern used the GI Bill to get a Ph.D., while
Nixon used slush funds to finance red baiting.

By election time in 1972 the Republican propaganda machine convinced the
weak minded and ignorant that Nixon was the warrior and McGovern the
dodger.

They're trying to pull the same trick in 2004.


I can remember the 1972 election, but I sure don't remember what you
described. I think you fabricated it.

As I recall it was the Democrats who portrayed Nixon as a warrior and
both portrayed McGovern as a 'peacenik'.

I don't recall anyone portraying McGovern as a dodger.

I also thought that McGovern flew B-25s.

But just look back at the Republican primaries campaign from 2000.
The Bush camp tried to make McCain out to be mentally unstable. Now
we know that Bush thinks he's on a mission from God. Who was the
real nutcase?

--

FF

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
hlink.net...
"Mike Dargan" wrote in message
news:qd0Dc.117009$0y.58857@attbi_s03...

The Republicans and their junior college instructor lackey's have a
long
history of belittling those who served well while exaggerating the
military records of their, more prudent, candidates.

Dunno about a long history, but that was evident in 2000.


I did not write anything that appears above. If you're going to snip my
words then also snip my name.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message link.net...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
hlink.net...
"Mike Dargan" wrote in message
news:qd0Dc.117009$0y.58857@attbi_s03...

The Republicans and their junior college instructor lackey's have a
long
history of belittling those who served well while exaggerating the
military records of their, more prudent, candidates.

Dunno about a long history, but that was evident in 2000.


I did not write anything that appears above. If you're going to snip my
words then also snip my name.


Sorry about that. I'll try to be more careful.

--

FF

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...

I also thought that McGovern flew B-25s.

No....B-24s for the Eighth Air Force.

But just look back at the Republican primaries campaign from 2000.
The Bush camp tried to make McCain out to be mentally unstable. Now
we know that Bush thinks he's on a mission from God. Who was the
real nutcase?

IAC, if McCain was nutty, it was probably due to the time he spent in the Hanoi
Hilton. How is Bush's nuttiness explained? Surely things couldn't have been
that tough in those south Texas cantinas he hung around in during the Battle of
the Gulf of Mexico.

George Z.