We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!!

Thank you Bruce, thank you.

Yes that's right. According to http://www.usinflationcalculator.com a PW-5 in today's money would be $23,976.

I'll repeat that a second time for clarification $23,976.

And a third time for impact $23,976


I rest my case to all you naysayers who say a glider can't be produced at a reasonable cost!



There it is. An ASW-19 WAS cutting edge on the production line, a PW-5 was NOT! "If" the PW-5 didn't look like a Volkswagen clown car, it would have revolutionized the sport. Perhaps someone should take a aesthetically pleasing 15 meter popular club class glider and replicate it using the same production quality of the PW-5 and sell them.

Here's to hoping a second chance at the great intentions of the PW-5 to someone out there. If we had that, the hopes and dreams of a world class would be a reality, and soaring would be made great again.

Well when that glider was produced, the wages in Poland were peanuts. Whilst I am sure that current wages in Poland do not match wages in Germany, clearly the polish businesses worked out that it is useful to set prices closer to those in the west. So the simplistic comparison where the dollar price is inflated by the inflation factor is not accurate. The landscape has changed.

Cheers

Paul

On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 12:05:09 PM UTC+3, wrote:
Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!!

Thank you Bruce, thank you.

Yes that's right. According to http://www.usinflationcalculator.com a PW-5 in today's money would be $23,976.

I'll repeat that a second time for clarification $23,976.

And a third time for impact $23,976


I rest my case to all you naysayers who say a glider can't be produced at a reasonable cost!



There it is. An ASW-19 WAS cutting edge on the production line, a PW-5 was NOT! "If" the PW-5 didn't look like a Volkswagen clown car, it would have revolutionized the sport. Perhaps someone should take a aesthetically pleasing 15 meter popular club class glider and replicate it using the same production quality of the PW-5 and sell them.

Here's to hoping a second chance at the great intentions of the PW-5 to someone out there. If we had that, the hopes and dreams of a world class would be a reality, and soaring would be made great again.

You seem to have missed the part where I said:

"I suspect other factors such as the cost of living in Poland might be more relevant -- that looks to me more like a factor of 3.5 since the mid 90s, which would make a PW5 cost $52500 now."

Here's your chance, Wilbur/Sean. Sell your ASG-29 and buy 10 used PW-5s
and hand them out to deserving individuals and/or clubs. You can ensure
your place in history with that one selfless act!

But, as was said earlier, you can build something ugly or something
pretty (performance, looks, whatever) for the same price, but you won't
build thinner airfoils for the same price. If you could, why weren't
then done in the past? Hint: it wasn't science, it was technology
(theory vs engineering/materials) and the materials to produce the
theory cost more, not to mention the labor.

Is this thing repeating? To paraphrase Einstein: Saying the same thing
over and over again is the definition of insanity. Maybe Sean/Wilbur is
simply trying to drive us all mad and we're taking the bait.

I'm out (I hope).

On 3/21/2017 3:05 AM, wrote:
Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!!

Thank you Bruce, thank you.

Yes that's right. According to http://www.usinflationcalculator.com a PW-5 in today's money would be $23,976.

I'll repeat that a second time for clarification $23,976.

And a third time for impact $23,976


I rest my case to all you naysayers who say a glider can't be produced at a reasonable cost!



There it is. An ASW-19 WAS cutting edge on the production line, a PW-5 was NOT! "If" the PW-5 didn't look like a Volkswagen clown car, it would have revolutionized the sport. Perhaps someone should take a aesthetically pleasing 15 meter popular club class glider and replicate it using the same production quality of the PW-5 and sell them.

Here's to hoping a second chance at the great intentions of the PW-5 to someone out there. If we had that, the hopes and dreams of a world class would be a reality, and soaring would be made great again.

--
Dan, 5J

On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 2:05:09 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!!

Thank you Bruce, thank you.

Yes that's right. According to http://www.usinflationcalculator.com a PW-5 in today's money would be $23,976.

I'll repeat that a second time for clarification $23,976.

And a third time for impact $23,976


I rest my case to all you naysayers who say a glider can't be produced at a reasonable cost!


I hate to be the math and economics guy all the time, but I think you rested your case on the wrong analysis.

The PW-5 was made in Poland. You applied the US CPI. Turns out US and Polish inflation rates are different because (drum roll) they are different countries. Poland went through hyperinflation after the end of the Cold War and did a 10,000:1 redenomination of their currency in 1995.

If you compound Polish CPI from 1994 to today you get higher prices by a factor of 5.9. That would make a $15,000 PW-5 in 1994 cost about $88,000 today.

But don't despair. Big differentials in inflation can be accompanied by offsetting currency exchange rates. The Polish Zloty has devalued a bit versus the dollar so, adjusting for inflation AND exchange rates (adjusting for the redenomination), a 1994 PW-5 would cost around $55,000 today.

I bet that's not too far off from what you'd pay for a GP 11, and the GP 11 performs a lot better than a PW-5.

This is a simplified analysis as inflation for skilled technical jobs (like making gliders) can rise at a somewhat different rate than overall prices. Nevertheless, engineering and economics are kind of like gravity, you ignore them at your peril.

Do I get a chicken dinner?

Andy Blackburn
9B

Sorry, no chicken dinner.

You are comparing apples to oranges from 2 decades ago where political environments have changed, in an attempt to prove that gliders MUST cost a fortune. It's just as silly as the prison example above, or the production plant in Mexico. One of the big reasons this sport has gone dow hill has been from the cult mantra that NOTHING can be changed (period), which is just ridiculous! Thus no structured group effort is made to change.

My point is this, you all say it can't be done, I say it already has been done. The PW-5 was created at an affordable price. And it absolutely could be created again, perhaps not in the same country, or by the same manufacture, and hopefully not the same design! But it has been done before and therefor can be done again.

After this in depth discussion I sincerely believe that the reason gliders cost so much is because there just isn't anyone capable of manufacturing a sailplane that actually wants to produce an affordable glider. The desire seems to be in only the extreme cutting edge technology. Sailboat, airplane, automobile and other transportation designs all have varieties available ranging from basic to advanced, except soaring.

Therefor, pilots are forced to choose between a sailplane that is the price of a Ferrari or Maserati, or an antique worn out old fiberglass ship that is crazed over and who knows just how safe it really is since there's no data on the structural integrity of 50 year old fiberglass.

Rant over, go ahead, flame away.

On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 5:39:26 PM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:
SNIP
I bet that's not too far off from what you'd pay for a GP 11, and the GP 11 performs a lot better than a PW-5.

Andy Blackburn
9B

Thanks for the GP 11 shout-out Andy.

Base Price for a GP 11, with calculated 38-39 L/D, is 43,900 EUR, with 11,900 EUR for a trailer and up to 12% discount with 50%-100% deposit. That's about as good a deal in a new-built glider as your likely to get out there folks.

Simple, robust, good performance, new materials and aerodynamic design, and perfect for club use.

BUT, there has been very little to no interest to date. We all representing GP Gliders wish this lack of interest was not the case. If you have any interest in this type of glider, give me a shout as the factory will only enter production if there is demand.

Tim McAllister
GP Gliders USA

On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 2:34:09 AM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 3:50:01 AM UTC+3, wrote:
Again, no one on here will discuss these questions:

How much was a PW-5 brand new?

Is it not a rhetorical question? I believe my club's two PW5s in 1994 or 1995 (which were somewhere in the first five or six serial numbers) cost NZ$25000, or about US$15000.

What would that be worth in today's dollars with inflation?

That's US$24000 now, based on US inflation.

I suspect other factors such as the cost of living in Poland might be more relevant -- that looks to me more like a factor of 3.5 since the mid 90s, which would make a PW5 cost $52500 now.

IIRC when the PW-6 was early in production, if you bought one, they would give you a PW-5 to go with it. Not sure how many took advantage of that, however, the late Dick Johnson donated a PW-6 and PW-5 to the Mississippi State University Gliding Club, so perhaps he did.

Again, no one on here will discuss these questions:

How much was a PW-5 brand new?

What would that be worth in today's dollars with inflation?


The answer alone removes all doubt that affordable sailplanes CAN be made!