We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 12:05:09 PM UTC+3, wrote:
Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!!

Thank you Bruce, thank you.

Yes that's right. According to http://www.usinflationcalculator.com a PW-5 in today's money would be $23,976.

I'll repeat that a second time for clarification $23,976.

And a third time for impact $23,976


I rest my case to all you naysayers who say a glider can't be produced at a reasonable cost!



There it is. An ASW-19 WAS cutting edge on the production line, a PW-5 was NOT! "If" the PW-5 didn't look like a Volkswagen clown car, it would have revolutionized the sport. Perhaps someone should take a aesthetically pleasing 15 meter popular club class glider and replicate it using the same production quality of the PW-5 and sell them.

Here's to hoping a second chance at the great intentions of the PW-5 to someone out there. If we had that, the hopes and dreams of a world class would be a reality, and soaring would be made great again.

You seem to have missed the part where I said:

"I suspect other factors such as the cost of living in Poland might be more relevant -- that looks to me more like a factor of 3.5 since the mid 90s, which would make a PW5 cost $52500 now."

Here's your chance, Wilbur/Sean. Sell your ASG-29 and buy 10 used PW-5s
and hand them out to deserving individuals and/or clubs. You can ensure
your place in history with that one selfless act!

But, as was said earlier, you can build something ugly or something
pretty (performance, looks, whatever) for the same price, but you won't
build thinner airfoils for the same price. If you could, why weren't
then done in the past? Hint: it wasn't science, it was technology
(theory vs engineering/materials) and the materials to produce the
theory cost more, not to mention the labor.

Is this thing repeating? To paraphrase Einstein: Saying the same thing
over and over again is the definition of insanity. Maybe Sean/Wilbur is
simply trying to drive us all mad and we're taking the bait.

I'm out (I hope).

On 3/21/2017 3:05 AM, wrote:
Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!!

Thank you Bruce, thank you.

Yes that's right. According to http://www.usinflationcalculator.com a PW-5 in today's money would be $23,976.

I'll repeat that a second time for clarification $23,976.

And a third time for impact $23,976


I rest my case to all you naysayers who say a glider can't be produced at a reasonable cost!



There it is. An ASW-19 WAS cutting edge on the production line, a PW-5 was NOT! "If" the PW-5 didn't look like a Volkswagen clown car, it would have revolutionized the sport. Perhaps someone should take a aesthetically pleasing 15 meter popular club class glider and replicate it using the same production quality of the PW-5 and sell them.

Here's to hoping a second chance at the great intentions of the PW-5 to someone out there. If we had that, the hopes and dreams of a world class would be a reality, and soaring would be made great again.

--
Dan, 5J

On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 2:05:09 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!!

Thank you Bruce, thank you.

Yes that's right. According to http://www.usinflationcalculator.com a PW-5 in today's money would be $23,976.

I'll repeat that a second time for clarification $23,976.

And a third time for impact $23,976


I rest my case to all you naysayers who say a glider can't be produced at a reasonable cost!


I hate to be the math and economics guy all the time, but I think you rested your case on the wrong analysis.

The PW-5 was made in Poland. You applied the US CPI. Turns out US and Polish inflation rates are different because (drum roll) they are different countries. Poland went through hyperinflation after the end of the Cold War and did a 10,000:1 redenomination of their currency in 1995.

If you compound Polish CPI from 1994 to today you get higher prices by a factor of 5.9. That would make a $15,000 PW-5 in 1994 cost about $88,000 today.

But don't despair. Big differentials in inflation can be accompanied by offsetting currency exchange rates. The Polish Zloty has devalued a bit versus the dollar so, adjusting for inflation AND exchange rates (adjusting for the redenomination), a 1994 PW-5 would cost around $55,000 today.

I bet that's not too far off from what you'd pay for a GP 11, and the GP 11 performs a lot better than a PW-5.

This is a simplified analysis as inflation for skilled technical jobs (like making gliders) can rise at a somewhat different rate than overall prices. Nevertheless, engineering and economics are kind of like gravity, you ignore them at your peril.

Do I get a chicken dinner?

Andy Blackburn
9B

Sorry, no chicken dinner.

You are comparing apples to oranges from 2 decades ago where political environments have changed, in an attempt to prove that gliders MUST cost a fortune. It's just as silly as the prison example above, or the production plant in Mexico. One of the big reasons this sport has gone dow hill has been from the cult mantra that NOTHING can be changed (period), which is just ridiculous! Thus no structured group effort is made to change.

My point is this, you all say it can't be done, I say it already has been done. The PW-5 was created at an affordable price. And it absolutely could be created again, perhaps not in the same country, or by the same manufacture, and hopefully not the same design! But it has been done before and therefor can be done again.

After this in depth discussion I sincerely believe that the reason gliders cost so much is because there just isn't anyone capable of manufacturing a sailplane that actually wants to produce an affordable glider. The desire seems to be in only the extreme cutting edge technology. Sailboat, airplane, automobile and other transportation designs all have varieties available ranging from basic to advanced, except soaring.

Therefor, pilots are forced to choose between a sailplane that is the price of a Ferrari or Maserati, or an antique worn out old fiberglass ship that is crazed over and who knows just how safe it really is since there's no data on the structural integrity of 50 year old fiberglass.

Rant over, go ahead, flame away.

On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 6:17:53 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Sorry, no chicken dinner.

You are comparing apples to oranges from 2 decades ago where political environments have changed, in an attempt to prove that gliders MUST cost a fortune. It's just as silly as the prison example above,...

Wilbur/Sean, can you really not see the absurdity of you using the word "silly" to argue against economic theory which has withstood the test of time. Andy actually knows what he is speaking of and has a history to prove such. "Silly" is just rude name calling, not a valid argument, nor do you have a history of upper management making business decisions on sound economic analysis. At some point in every dreamers life it is time open the ears and stop with "silly" thoughts, or put up and form a company and move forward to prove how "silly" all the others are.

As an owner and proponent of the PW-5 my heart is always made to beat a bit faster knowing this glider still has relevance even if it is as a benchmark of what not to do. The glider's place in history will show it has helped advance the sport.

The cost of gliders really doesn't matter. Make them free and after a surge in activity the y will not be flown very much. What gets in the way of flying is not availability of gliders it is the availability of time and the commitment to of this time to fly. Many of us are not blessed with the time needed to enjoy the sport. Find a way to make more time and then we can worry about the availability of gliders..

The only reason to own a glider is convenience. The cost of ownership is relatively high compared to renting or joining a club where ships are made available. The club I used to fly with has a 304 available to members and a few of the owners are gracious to loan their ships to qualified pilots. I was never at a loss for a better glider and went the route of the PW to chase records and go after a world championship. Didn't work out as planned.

When I owned a powerplane the break even cost of ownership vs. renting was flying about 65 hours each year. The benefit to owning was being able to fly when I wanted for as long as I wanted. Economically owning an airplane was not a great economic savings in terms of cash.

The glider isn't much different. Club dues were about $500 and I paid these whether I was an owner or used club ships. Owning the PW cos me about $1500 year including the trailer, insurance, annuals, and any additional expenses of hauling the thing around. My average year was about 75 hours in the PW. Almost every time I flew the club ships were in the box so I flew the PW by choice. Insert your favorite PW slight/bad choice joke here.

Want to fly inexpensively; join a good club, use their equipment and accept the inconvenience.

A new trailer, instruments, parachute, covers (etc.) will set you back 25k. If someone manages to build a new glider with same price, I have only one comment: shut up and take my money. Maybe add a sustainer for total price of 45k? Waiting for "Sealbur Gliders Ltd" start taking orders.

I've got it!

You're that "Flexi Seal" guy, aren't you? What do you want? This
(shaking his head in a black and white video)? Or... /_*THIS*_/ (in
full living color)? What choice is there? We need an ASH-31mi (with
fixed gear and no flaps) for $15K.

I love you, Sean, but you'd get more takers as a barker at the county fair.

On 3/22/2017 7:17 PM, wrote:
Sorry, no chicken dinner.

You are comparing apples to oranges from 2 decades ago where political environments have changed, in an attempt to prove that gliders MUST cost a fortune. It's just as silly as the prison example above, or the production plant in Mexico. One of the big reasons this sport has gone dow hill has been from the cult mantra that NOTHING can be changed (period), which is just ridiculous! Thus no structured group effort is made to change.

My point is this, you all say it can't be done, I say it already has been done. The PW-5 was created at an affordable price. And it absolutely could be created again, perhaps not in the same country, or by the same manufacture, and hopefully not the same design! But it has been done before and therefor can be done again.

After this in depth discussion I sincerely believe that the reason gliders cost so much is because there just isn't anyone capable of manufacturing a sailplane that actually wants to produce an affordable glider. The desire seems to be in only the extreme cutting edge technology. Sailboat, airplane, automobile and other transportation designs all have varieties available ranging from basic to advanced, except soaring.

Therefor, pilots are forced to choose between a sailplane that is the price of a Ferrari or Maserati, or an antique worn out old fiberglass ship that is crazed over and who knows just how safe it really is since there's no data on the structural integrity of 50 year old fiberglass.

Rant over, go ahead, flame away.

--
Dan, 5J

It's just as it is:

For 25 k€, you'll get a pristine 40:1 glider tomorrow. Classifieds are full of them. It will have at most 20% of its service life expectance, it will have a trailer, instruments and everything. Pay today, fly the next day.

There is just no market *at all* for a re-birthed glider. Never has been, never will be.
If this Sean/Wilbur troll doesn't believe it, why doesn't he just take a million or three and go waste it on his business model? Right, because there is no business model to start with...

Bert TW

On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 5:39:26 PM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:
SNIP
I bet that's not too far off from what you'd pay for a GP 11, and the GP 11 performs a lot better than a PW-5.

Andy Blackburn
9B

Thanks for the GP 11 shout-out Andy.

Base Price for a GP 11, with calculated 38-39 L/D, is 43,900 EUR, with 11,900 EUR for a trailer and up to 12% discount with 50%-100% deposit. That's about as good a deal in a new-built glider as your likely to get out there folks.

Simple, robust, good performance, new materials and aerodynamic design, and perfect for club use.

BUT, there has been very little to no interest to date. We all representing GP Gliders wish this lack of interest was not the case. If you have any interest in this type of glider, give me a shout as the factory will only enter production if there is demand.

Tim McAllister
GP Gliders USA