2018 - AN EXCITING YEAR

The question to ask is would you send an average pilot solo in a Duo?

Chris

At 18:47 18 February 2018, Dave Springford wrote:
I think that you will find the primary difference between the Duo and
K-21
=
is energy management. Teaching students to manage energy and land is one
o=
f the keys to getting them solo in a reasonable amount of time. My club
pu=
rchased a Duo XL last year and while we have been training in K-21's for
10=
years, the transition to the Duo was not easy for some licensed pilots.
=
=20

It is much quieter than the K-21 so the noise feedback for speed control
is=
gone.

It is much slipperier than the K-21 so subtle changes in attitude result
in=
much larger changes in speed. Couple this with the lack of noise and
pilot=
s were finding themselves over 70 kts on final.

It carries more energy into the landing than does a K-21, although the
addi=
tion of landing flaps to the XL version resolves much of this.

Besides its handling and performance, another nice advantage is the
sideway=
s opening canopy does not result in burn marks on the instrument panel in
t=
he front and headrest in the back. We've sent an S3 vario back 2 times
for=
screen replacement because of sun burns that happen almost instantly
when
=
the sun is in the worst possible spot for a K-21.

On Sunday, 18 February 2018 21:15:07 UTC+2, Chris Rowland wrote:
The question to ask is would you send an average pilot solo in a Duo?

Chris

Would you send pilot trained in Duo to solo in any other type?

On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 10:15:07 PM UTC+3, Chris Rowland wrote:
The question to ask is would you send an average pilot solo in a Duo?

My club has sent dozens of average pilots solo in DG1000 in the last ten years.

At 21:42 18 February 2018, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 10:15:07 PM UTC+3, Chris
Rowland wrote:
The question to ask is would you send an average pilot solo in a
Duo?

My club has sent dozens of average pilots solo in DG1000 in the
last ten
years.


A Duo xl much easier to land .
In fairness if you loose control in a duo it picks up speed very
quickly.
Easier in a K13 but the spars are going to get worse not better

On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 12:15:07 PM UTC-7, Chris Rowland wrote:
The question to ask is would you send an average pilot solo in a Duo?

Chris

At 18:47 18 February 2018, Dave Springford wrote:
I think that you will find the primary difference between the Duo and
K-21
=
is energy management. Teaching students to manage energy and land is one
o=
f the keys to getting them solo in a reasonable amount of time. My club
pu=
rchased a Duo XL last year and while we have been training in K-21's for
10=
years, the transition to the Duo was not easy for some licensed pilots.
=
=20

It is much quieter than the K-21 so the noise feedback for speed control
is=
gone.

It is much slipperier than the K-21 so subtle changes in attitude result
in=
much larger changes in speed. Couple this with the lack of noise and
pilot=
s were finding themselves over 70 kts on final.

It carries more energy into the landing than does a K-21, although the
addi=
tion of landing flaps to the XL version resolves much of this.

Besides its handling and performance, another nice advantage is the
sideway=
s opening canopy does not result in burn marks on the instrument panel in
t=
he front and headrest in the back. We've sent an S3 vario back 2 times
for=
screen replacement because of sun burns that happen almost instantly
when
=
the sun is in the worst possible spot for a K-21.


Yes, I would send a student solo in a Duo Discus. But a better question is how much longer would it take to get the student to solo standard vs a K21.. I am not sure what the average amount of flights to solo would be in each aircraft but I am certain it would be more in a Duo. For the sake of argument, lets say it would take 5 more flights to solo in a Duo. If you have 10 students, you will need 50 more flights from your instructor group. If that is not a big deal than get a Duo. If like most clubs your instructor time is at a premium then get a K-21 (or 2-33,L-23).

I fly commercial rides Sundays at my local glider port. This glider operation is now pretty much being run by the second generation, i.e., very experienced operation. They have G-103 and 2-33's. I am told that they can teach someone in in the 2-33, get them past and check ride and then check that same pilot out in the G-103, in less time than it takes to teach to check ride in the G-103.

I learned to fly gliders in the G-103, and 98% of my flight time is in high performance glass so I try to avoid as many rides in the 2-33's as possible and grab the G-103 rides.

As for students flying a quieter glider, pitch angles and a good scan. I regularly fly four different types of gliders with four different approach speeds in an environment where a Very steep wind gradient can exist, or not. All have different levels of ambient noise, from the quietest I have ever not heard, to having to shout to the ride. Takes a femtosecond to scan past ASI after you set pitch angle, then maybe another look on stabilized final.


On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 6:40:06 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 12:15:07 PM UTC-7, Chris Rowland wrote:
The question to ask is would you send an average pilot solo in a Duo?

Chris

At 18:47 18 February 2018, Dave Springford wrote:
I think that you will find the primary difference between the Duo and
K-21
=
is energy management. Teaching students to manage energy and land is one
o=
f the keys to getting them solo in a reasonable amount of time. My club
pu=
rchased a Duo XL last year and while we have been training in K-21's for
10=
years, the transition to the Duo was not easy for some licensed pilots.
=
=20

It is much quieter than the K-21 so the noise feedback for speed control
is=
gone.

It is much slipperier than the K-21 so subtle changes in attitude result
in=
much larger changes in speed. Couple this with the lack of noise and
pilot=
s were finding themselves over 70 kts on final.

It carries more energy into the landing than does a K-21, although the
addi=
tion of landing flaps to the XL version resolves much of this.

Besides its handling and performance, another nice advantage is the
sideway=
s opening canopy does not result in burn marks on the instrument panel in
t=
he front and headrest in the back. We've sent an S3 vario back 2 times
for=
screen replacement because of sun burns that happen almost instantly
when
=
the sun is in the worst possible spot for a K-21.


Yes, I would send a student solo in a Duo Discus. But a better question is how much longer would it take to get the student to solo standard vs a K21. I am not sure what the average amount of flights to solo would be in each aircraft but I am certain it would be more in a Duo. For the sake of argument, lets say it would take 5 more flights to solo in a Duo. If you have 10 students, you will need 50 more flights from your instructor group. If that is not a big deal than get a Duo. If like most clubs your instructor time is at a premium then get a K-21 (or 2-33,L-23).

On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 9:01:05 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

I learned to fly gliders in the G-103, and 98% of my flight time is in high performance glass so I try to avoid as many rides in the 2-33's as possible and grab the G-103 rides.


An interesting observation with respect to outreach and growing the sport that we may miss because we are so close to it:

This fall I was talking with the new girlfriend about Soaring, and she said she wanted to try it (as a passenger). So I took her out to the club which has a very well-worn 2-33.

When my turn came up, I asked her if she was ready. She gave me a small head shake and said "no". I asked if she wanted to go up with one of the instructors instead. Same answer. I let it go and we did not speak of it.

Fast forward a week. We're at the end of the Netflix queue and looking for a movie to watch, so I pop in "A Fine Day of Soaring". She sat up sharply and pointed at the screen: "There! Take me flying in that! That looks safe!"

Two things sell to the general pubic - Sexy and Safe (looking). The 2-33 fails badly on both counts.

The bad news is I may have to buy a glass 2 seater now ...

Glass two seater, i.e., Nimbus 4D and ASH-25 is the most fun I have had flying gliders. Highly recommend it. However, if you are teaching, a higher drag aircraft does not build speed as fast as a sleek one.

On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 8:50:14 PM UTC-8, Jeff Morgan wrote:
On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 9:01:05 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

I learned to fly gliders in the G-103, and 98% of my flight time is in high performance glass so I try to avoid as many rides in the 2-33's as possible and grab the G-103 rides.


An interesting observation with respect to outreach and growing the sport that we may miss because we are so close to it:

This fall I was talking with the new girlfriend about Soaring, and she said she wanted to try it (as a passenger). So I took her out to the club which has a very well-worn 2-33.

When my turn came up, I asked her if she was ready. She gave me a small head shake and said "no". I asked if she wanted to go up with one of the instructors instead. Same answer. I let it go and we did not speak of it.

Fast forward a week. We're at the end of the Netflix queue and looking for a movie to watch, so I pop in "A Fine Day of Soaring". She sat up sharply and pointed at the screen: "There! Take me flying in that! That looks safe!"

Two things sell to the general pubic - Sexy and Safe (looking). The 2-33 fails badly on both counts.

The bad news is I may have to buy a glass 2 seater now ...

In my experience it's better to start out in a glider that builds up
speed quickly than to develop your habits in a drag queen and then move
up and have to essentially start over.

On 2/18/2018 10:21 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Glass two seater, i.e., Nimbus 4D and ASH-25 is the most fun I have had flying gliders. Highly recommend it. However, if you are teaching, a higher drag aircraft does not build speed as fast as a sleek one.

On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 8:50:14 PM UTC-8, Jeff Morgan wrote:
On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 9:01:05 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

I learned to fly gliders in the G-103, and 98% of my flight time is in high performance glass so I try to avoid as many rides in the 2-33's as possible and grab the G-103 rides.

An interesting observation with respect to outreach and growing the sport that we may miss because we are so close to it:

This fall I was talking with the new girlfriend about Soaring, and she said she wanted to try it (as a passenger). So I took her out to the club which has a very well-worn 2-33.

When my turn came up, I asked her if she was ready. She gave me a small head shake and said "no". I asked if she wanted to go up with one of the instructors instead. Same answer. I let it go and we did not speak of it.

Fast forward a week. We're at the end of the Netflix queue and looking for a movie to watch, so I pop in "A Fine Day of Soaring". She sat up sharply and pointed at the screen: "There! Take me flying in that! That looks safe!"

Two things sell to the general pubic - Sexy and Safe (looking). The 2-33 fails badly on both counts.

The bad news is I may have to buy a glass 2 seater now ...

--
Dan, 5J

Curious, why do you say that?
Yes, I started (decades ago) in a 2-33, soloed, went to a 1-26, then a 1-34 (couple flights) then (after going up in a Cessna -150 to learn flaps......."flaps down, nose down......flaps up, nose up") I went through a 1-35 and a PIK-20.
Since then a few more "SGS", 2 place Lark, as well as a list of ASW sailplanes (-24 and up).
Also a CFIG for about 8 years.

Maybe it was my primary instructor (Uncle Hank), doubt it was my ability.

Just curious why you made the comment?