$75,000 2-33

On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 4:45:06 PM UTC-4, Michael Opitz wrote:
The problem I have seen
over many years, is that the typical average USA club members just
don't have the dedication or discipline to follow the proven European
model. Until that mentality changes, the differences between
equipment will continue to be dramatic, and the few hard working
members will continue to realize they are being taken advantage of,
burn themselves out, and leave to do other things. The slackers are
then left asking themselves "What happened?"

RO

Hey Mike,

I asked the question because I wanted to get these sorts of responses. Having flown extensively in UK and Europe, it's exactly the above that leaps out. The clubs do all of their own work and have the facilities required to do that work (shops and hangars). Being one of the guys who is becoming burned out (two full refinish projects in the last 5 years), it's that community that's missing in many clubs in the US (though not all).

One related thing though is that issue of owning the airfield. I noted the large club that bought their field for 190,000 DM in 1999 as mentioned by Andreas. If we tried to buy our airfield 20 years ago, the asking price was $5,000,000 (five million) and today it's north of $9,000,000. Because of land use policies in the US, there is little separation between City/Town and "country", so anything within 100 miles of a major population center is going to be incredibly expensive.

It's been my observation that most of the more successful clubs (again with some exceptions) have ownership of the airport. One of the big problems (as your club knows quite acutely) is that being able to afford an airport in the US anywhere near a major population center is a challenge. So, you either end up "out in the boondocks" (for our EU friends, that means a 2 hour to 3 hour drive from where people live) or you end up coexisting on a busy public use airport with a lot of issues (such as not being able to winch launch).

It's not that Americans are (all) stupid or stubborn, but the economics are fundamentally different. And yeah, some of us are incredibly stupid and stubborn.

Erik Mann

You could buy a farm with sufficient space to grade and seed your own
runway.Â* The farm house would make a terrific club house and the barn
would be turned into a shop.Â* That would be a lot cheaper that $5-9
million and wouldn't have to be too far away from population centers.

On 3/13/2018 10:10 AM, Papa3 wrote:
On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 4:45:06 PM UTC-4, Michael Opitz wrote:
The problem I have seen
over many years, is that the typical average USA club members just
don't have the dedication or discipline to follow the proven European
model. Until that mentality changes, the differences between
equipment will continue to be dramatic, and the few hard working
members will continue to realize they are being taken advantage of,
burn themselves out, and leave to do other things. The slackers are
then left asking themselves "What happened?"

RO
Hey Mike,

I asked the question because I wanted to get these sorts of responses. Having flown extensively in UK and Europe, it's exactly the above that leaps out. The clubs do all of their own work and have the facilities required to do that work (shops and hangars). Being one of the guys who is becoming burned out (two full refinish projects in the last 5 years), it's that community that's missing in many clubs in the US (though not all).

One related thing though is that issue of owning the airfield. I noted the large club that bought their field for 190,000 DM in 1999 as mentioned by Andreas. If we tried to buy our airfield 20 years ago, the asking price was $5,000,000 (five million) and today it's north of $9,000,000. Because of land use policies in the US, there is little separation between City/Town and "country", so anything within 100 miles of a major population center is going to be incredibly expensive.

It's been my observation that most of the more successful clubs (again with some exceptions) have ownership of the airport. One of the big problems (as your club knows quite acutely) is that being able to afford an airport in the US anywhere near a major population center is a challenge. So, you either end up "out in the boondocks" (for our EU friends, that means a 2 hour to 3 hour drive from where people live) or you end up coexisting on a busy public use airport with a lot of issues (such as not being able to winch launch).

It's not that Americans are (all) stupid or stubborn, but the economics are fundamentally different. And yeah, some of us are incredibly stupid and stubborn.

Erik Mann

--
Dan, 5J

On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 4:45:06 PM UTC-4, Michael Opitz wrote:


OK, how many of you USA RAS posters have belonged to a European
club? There is a big difference between Europe and the USA. In
European clubs ALL members are expected to WORK (no
exceptions) On a flying day, one had to be at the airport by 9 AM
(in my club in Germany) to help unpack the hangar and assemble
whatever was kept in trailers. Once the gliders were ready, there
was a meeting to assign who got to fly what and when. Private
owners were not exempt. If you weren't flying, you were expected
to help wherever you could. After your flight as well. Nobody was
allowed to leave until the gliders had all been put away, and the
hangar doors were closed.

In the winter there was maintenance work to be done every week in
the evening. The club also took on subcontract work making
electrical cables for a local electronics firm. At the end of the winter
work season, all of the man hours were added up and divided by the
number of members in the club. If the number of hours one put in
was at the average or above, one got a "thank you". If one's hours
were below average, one received a bill to pay cash for the shortfall
in hours not worked.

This system worked to counter the problem that most USA clubs
have where only a few dedicated folks do all of the work, while the
rest can't seem to be bothered to help. It seems that most US
glider pilots want a country club atmosphere where they can reserve
a take-off time, show up at the last minute with everything already
set up for them, go fly, and then leave right after landing so that
someone else can put everything away. This may be fine for a
commercial operation, but USA pilots don't want to pay the
commercial operation's higher fees (due to providing all of these
services). The USA pilots want the lower club rates without having
to put the work in themselves.

Most European clubs also started many years ago, so what you see
now are the fruits of many years of dedicated teamwork. The
founders of my old club in Germany went door to door asking for
donations so they could build their first primary glider back in the
early 1950's. It's sort of like the old ant vs grasshopper fable. The
USA grasshoppers are jealous of what the European ants have built
up over many years of working together. The problem I have seen
over many years, is that the typical average USA club members just
don't have the dedication or discipline to follow the proven European
model. Until that mentality changes, the differences between
equipment will continue to be dramatic, and the few hard working
members will continue to realize they are being taken advantage of,
burn themselves out, and leave to do other things. The slackers are
then left asking themselves "What happened?"

RO

Hello Michael,

you are describing almost to the T the procedures in my club in Germany! One exception was that we allowed members to buy-out the 'Winterarbeit', if they wanted to or had only two left hands with thumbs on them! That generated enough funds to contract out certain jobs like re-roofing the hangar, etc..
As for the general membership age: in Germany, the clubs recruit out of the local high-schools - in the US out of the local retirement homes!

A funny story from a few years ago involving one of the few high-school aged kids we had: his mom dropped him off in the morning before his lesson and asked me when she could pick him back up. I told her that junior should call her after he helped washing, waxing and putting away the gliders, to which she replied with a mix of astonishment and horror: 'You mean my son has to work here? Why am I paying monthly dues?' In her mind, learning to fly gliders was like scheduling a lesson with the tennis- or golf-pro, although we briefed her on that when she signed junior up. Maybe we need to do a better job at that but in general, I do not think that the average US-teenager has the stamina to involve himself/herself in a 'German-style' club operation. This may be due to the chicken and egg problem: why would I like to hang out at the airport with a bunch of geezers if there are no peer-group around? Successful clubs like Harris Hill or Caesar Creek all have a youth group and a club-house - which as mentioned above - are the nucleus for growing a group. Randomly pick a web-site of a German club and look for the tab 'Jugendgruppe' (Youth group). You will see a good number of 14-21 year old fully integrated into or even running the entire operation!

Another issue is the geography of the US and life here in general. In Germany, a kid learns to fly and when leaving the area for college, he/she joins the local AKAFLIEG or soaring club - there are 900 clubs to pick from. In the US, if you happen to have a kid who solos during high-school, he/she is most likely lost to the sport since there is no soaring operation within easy reach of the college town. My son at NAU in Flagstaff, AZ is the best example. One can only hope that this person comes back to soaring at a later time in life.
Getting off the soap-box now - have I contributed enough to thread-drift? ;-)

Uli
'AS'

At 19:07 13 March 2018, AS wrote:

Hello Michael,

you are describing almost to the T the procedures in my club in
Germany!
On=
e exception was that we allowed members to buy-out the
'Winterarbeit', if
t=
hey wanted to or had only two left hands with thumbs on them!
That
generate=
d enough funds to contract out certain jobs like re-roofing the
hangar,
etc=
..
As for the general membership age: in Germany, the clubs recruit
out of
the=
local high-schools - in the US out of the local retirement homes!

A funny story from a few years ago involving one of the few high-
school
age=
d kids we had: his mom dropped him off in the morning before his
lesson
and=
asked me when she could pick him back up. I told her that junior
should
ca=
ll her after he helped washing, waxing and putting away the
gliders, to
whi=
ch she replied with a mix of astonishment and horror: 'You mean
my son has
=
to work here? Why am I paying monthly dues?' In her mind,
learning to fly
g=
liders was like scheduling a lesson with the tennis- or golf-pro,
although
=
we briefed her on that when she signed junior up. Maybe we need
to do a
bet=
ter job at that but in general, I do not think that the average
US-teenager=
has the stamina to involve himself/herself in a 'German-style' club
operat=
ion. This may be due to the chicken and egg problem: why would I
like to
ha=
ng out at the airport with a bunch of geezers if there are no peer-
group
ar=
ound? Successful clubs like Harris Hill or Caesar Creek all have a
youth
gr=
oup and a club-house - which as mentioned above - are the
nucleus for
growi=
ng a group. Randomly pick a web-site of a German club and look
for the tab
=
'Jugendgruppe' (Youth group). You will see a good number of 14-
21 year old
=
fully integrated into or even running the entire operation!=20

Another issue is the geography of the US and life here in general.
In
Germa=
ny, a kid learns to fly and when leaving the area for college, he/she
joins=
the local AKAFLIEG or soaring club - there are 900 clubs to pick
from. In
=
the US, if you happen to have a kid who solos during high-school,
he/she
is=
most likely lost to the sport since there is no soaring operation
within
e=
asy reach of the college town. My son at NAU in Flagstaff, AZ is the
best
e=
xample. One can only hope that this person comes back to soaring
at a
later=
time in life.
Getting off the soap-box now - have I contributed enough to
thread-drift?
;=
-)

Uli
'AS'

Hi Uli,

It was the same at my club in Germany for winter work hours. You
just got billed for the number of hours below the quota that you
didn't work. If you worked zero hours, you got billed the full
amount.

At Nutmeg, we have had junior scholarships going since the late
1960's. We normally always have one or two high school age kids
flying with us. Some have gone on to successful military or civilian
pilot careers. A few have stayed with soaring, but it is hard. "Life"
gets in the way... college, marriage, children, etc.. All you can hope
to do is to instill the love of soaring in them, so that eventually, they
will return to it somewhere, somehow. I was SSA Youth Education
Chairman for about 8 years back in the 1980's. it's a tough nut to
crack.

More thread-drift...

RO

On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 3:07:20 PM UTC-4, AS wrote:
Another issue is the geography of the US and life here in general. In Germany, a kid learns to fly and when leaving the area for college, he/she joins the local AKAFLIEG or soaring club - there are 900 clubs to pick from.

That is huge.

I do not think that the average US-teenager has the stamina to involve himself/herself in a 'German-style' club operation.

We have people in the USA that make gross generalizations about people of a certain age who're from certain countries. On average, those people are ignorant.

I share an airfield with young people who are active in soaring in the USA. Take my word for it. They are very high caliber individuals with great futures. And when they bring their friends to the airport to 'try soaring', I see that there are a lot of young people like that in the USA.

Uli, send your son 1.5 hours down to Prescott We have several Embry Riddle students and several 14-16 year olds learning gliders. And yes we only train in 2-33s as our fleet of blanik L13 is grounded. And yes we only winch launch. Our costs are very inexpensive and we fly year round weather permitting google "AC Goodwin memorial field" or Prescott Area soaring on fb

CH