Stall spin during aero tow? Std cirrus

How come nobody mentions positive faps in this discussion? Am I missing sth? Are they useless in situations when the tug is too slow? If so, why? Please illuminate me.

A bit helps, a lot of flaps also adds drag, not exactly what you want......so, balancing act.

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 7:16:30 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
A bit helps, a lot of flaps also adds drag, not exactly what you want......so, balancing act.

@tombravomike. Many gliders have no flaps. They are great - if you have them. Many do not. The Std Cirrus - which this thread started with - does not.

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 7:01:38 PM UTC-4, Tom BravoMike wrote:
How come nobody mentions positive faps in this discussion?
Am I missing sth? Are they useless in situations when the tug is too slow?
If so, why? Please illuminate me.

Flaps add a lot of drag. The first time I had a stall on tow,
I pulled down landing flaps, which recovered the stall and
almost put the towplane in the trees. I eased off the flap
and somehow he sped up without hitting anything.
Please do not try this at home.

Be safe out there,
Best Regards, Dave

PS: I think flaps do have the benefit of improving the lift
distribution on tow, which slightly compensates for the bad effects.

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 8:42:40 PM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 7:01:38 PM UTC-4, Tom BravoMike wrote:
How come nobody mentions positive faps in this discussion?
Am I missing sth? Are they useless in situations when the tug is too slow?
If so, why? Please illuminate me.

Flaps add a lot of drag. The first time I had a stall on tow,
I pulled down landing flaps, which recovered the stall and
almost put the towplane in the trees. I eased off the flap
and somehow he sped up without hitting anything.
Please do not try this at home.

Be safe out there,
Best Regards, Dave

PS: I think flaps do have the benefit of improving the lift
distribution on tow, which slightly compensates for the bad effects.

OK, so we are talking here 'nothing or everything'. Landing flaps are on the extreme end. The Ventus manual tells you to go from '0' to '+1' on take off if necessary (eg. with water). And yes, it does depend how much extra power the tow plane has. The golden middle rule applies...

Thanks for all the comments and personal stories guys. it really helped. The safety video from a competition that was posted here was very helpful it explained a lot!

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 9:34:10 PM UTC-4, Tom BravoMike wrote:
On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 8:42:40 PM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 7:01:38 PM UTC-4, Tom BravoMike wrote:
How come nobody mentions positive faps in this discussion?
Am I missing sth? Are they useless in situations when the tug is too slow?
If so, why? Please illuminate me.

Flaps add a lot of drag. The first time I had a stall on tow,
I pulled down landing flaps, which recovered the stall and
almost put the towplane in the trees. I eased off the flap
and somehow he sped up without hitting anything.
Please do not try this at home.

Be safe out there,
Best Regards, Dave

PS: I think flaps do have the benefit of improving the lift
distribution on tow, which slightly compensates for the bad effects.

OK, so we are talking here 'nothing or everything'. Landing flaps are
on the extreme end. The Ventus manual tells you to go from '0' to '+1'
on take off if necessary (eg. with water). And yes, it does depend how
much extra power the tow plane has. The golden middle rule applies...

I was already at flaps +2 due to inadequate tow speed, L is next step...
Certainly not "all or nothing"...

At 00:42 08 August 2018, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 7:01:38 PM UTC-4, Tom BravoMike wrote:
How come nobody mentions positive faps in this discussion?
Am I missing sth? Are they useless in situations when the tug is too
slow?
If so, why? Please illuminate me.

Flaps add a lot of drag. The first time I had a stall on tow,
I pulled down landing flaps, which recovered the stall and
almost put the towplane in the trees. I eased off the flap
and somehow he sped up without hitting anything.

Bear in mind that the tug pilot also has a release and if you do something
that endangers him he's perfectly entitled to use it.

The simple facts are that heavily loaded modern gliders need a ****load more speed than older light wingloading gliders.
Some tug pilots seem to not know the difference.
When I am in the tug I reckon I can feel when the glider needs speed but after many tows from the glider end I can see that not all tug pilots can see this.
Brief your tuggie or potentially die! I have lost one friend and seen some crappy launches at comps.
The JS1C at max weight needs a pawnee to fly at 75kts for the glider to feel good, my ASG29 needs at least 70kts, club tuggies might be more used to
Blaniks or the like that will climb OK at 55-60. Use the flaps as instructed by the flight manual.

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 10:45:24 AM UTC-4, Steve Koerner wrote:
This subject comes up every few years on RAS and that's a very good thing.. Long ago there was a death on tow with a heavily watered ship that I'm pretty sure was caused by this.

I have already posted a couple times in the past about my own near death experiences I have had dangling from a slow towplane at a remarkably low stalled tow position while slamming the stick back and forth against the stops in Ventus 1 and in ASW27. When this is happening at a very low altitude (as it was), then releasing is not an option.

Several have pointed up the necessity of communicating with the tow pilot.. I think it preferable to communicate in writing. Except at contests, I always make sure that the tow pilot has been handed my written towing instruction when I have water ballast. Here's a link to my little towing instruction sheet: https://goo.gl/PwVu71

Steve, you should not assume the tow planes airspeed indicator is calibrated or accurate. You might consider modifying your note to say "minimum" or "at least" and once safely on tow ask to slow down if need be.