high tow vs low tow

Some gliders have the CG hook just forward of the gear doors.Â* I always
raised the gear in my LAK-17a on tow (at a safe altitude, of course) to
get a marginal improvement in climb rate.Â* Everyone says that low tow is
best for XC tows.Â* I've only been on the front end of the rope on an XC
tow, so I can't address the back end.

On 2/27/2019 12:02 AM, wrote:
In Australia we now transition higher, I use around 200’ before going into low tow.
I have flown high tow at many overeas comps and still find low tow much more stable.
The only time I fly high tow at home is on long cross country tows where I also pull the gear up (nose hook only!) and let the tug pilot accelerate in level flight.
The issue of tug pilots ignoring what type and weight of glider behind them is much more of a safety issue than the simple high/low equasion.
(I am a tug pilot too!)
Tom

--
Dan, 5J

On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 11:02:17 PM UTC-8, wrote:
In Australia we now transition higher, I use around 200’ before going into low tow.
I have flown high tow at many overeas comps and still find low tow much more stable.
The only time I fly high tow at home is on long cross country tows where I also pull the gear up (nose hook only!) and let the tug pilot accelerate in level flight.

Weird, because long cross country tows is exactly the one time the rest of us use low tow!

The height difference between a good low tow and a good high tow isn't much anyway. Twenty feet / six metres maybe? Maybe less.

Yes!

Above the wake during a level (not climbing) tow, will place the glider quite a bit above the tow plane...not a good place to be...

Low tow during level tow, just barely below the wake will place the glider only very slightly lower than the tow plane...a good place to be...

So...anybody winning the argument yet? LOL


Cookie



Weird, because long cross country tows is exactly the one time the rest of us use low tow!

The height difference between a good low tow and a good high tow isn't much anyway. Twenty feet / six metres maybe? Maybe less.

On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 10:16:56 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
Sounds to me that this method of staying low in ground effect for low tow position will increase the time we spend in the dangerous zone below 200 feet, in addition to transitioning through the wake while low and slow. Personally I prefer to spend as less time as possible down low, and would rather transition to low tow position at safe altitude and safe speed. Especially at high density altitude such as we have in the west, fully ballasted combined with not so powerful towplane, the last thing I would want is to purposely stay in ground effect at the end of the runway while the tow plane slowly climbs higher. I never tried this, so maybe it is not as bad as i think it is.

Ramy

One reason I will never do this in a ballasted glider is wind shear.

Low tow increases the glider pilot's vulnerability to a slow tow.

best,
Evan

On Wednesday, February 27, 2019 at 7:45:46 AM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 10:16:56 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
Sounds to me that this method of staying low in ground effect for low tow position will increase the time we spend in the dangerous zone below 200 feet, in addition to transitioning through the wake while low and slow. Personally I prefer to spend as less time as possible down low, and would rather transition to low tow position at safe altitude and safe speed. Especially at high density altitude such as we have in the west, fully ballasted combined with not so powerful towplane, the last thing I would want is to purposely stay in ground effect at the end of the runway while the tow plane slowly climbs higher. I never tried this, so maybe it is not as bad as i think it is.

Ramy

One reason I will never do this in a ballasted glider is wind shear.

Low tow increases the glider pilot's vulnerability to a slow tow.

best,
Evan

If excessively low on tow wind shear can be a factor. Properly flown, my experience is that it is not.
Possibly you can explain your second contention. Slow is slow no matter which position you are in.
UH

On Wednesday, February 27, 2019 at 8:52:36 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 27, 2019 at 7:45:46 AM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 10:16:56 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
Sounds to me that this method of staying low in ground effect for low tow position will increase the time we spend in the dangerous zone below 200 feet, in addition to transitioning through the wake while low and slow. Personally I prefer to spend as less time as possible down low, and would rather transition to low tow position at safe altitude and safe speed. Especially at high density altitude such as we have in the west, fully ballasted combined with not so powerful towplane, the last thing I would want is to purposely stay in ground effect at the end of the runway while the tow plane slowly climbs higher. I never tried this, so maybe it is not as bad as i think it is.

Ramy

One reason I will never do this in a ballasted glider is wind shear.

Low tow increases the glider pilot's vulnerability to a slow tow.

best,
Evan

If excessively low on tow wind shear can be a factor. Properly flown, my experience is that it is not.
Possibly you can explain your second contention. Slow is slow no matter which position you are in.
UH

I think your argument here is that "a properly flown low tow doesn't hurt much." In which case my point has been made, yes?

T8

While I agree that "slow is slow", I think it's much better to be in
high tow position and be able to sink to low tow if the tug gets too
slow.Â* I've been dangling on the end of a slow rope with a full load and
had to start dumping while on tow.Â* It's not comfortable.

Of course that proper thing is to not get slow and I blame this on an
inexperienced tuggie who strives for a good climb rate at the expense of
the glider.

On 2/27/2019 6:52 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 27, 2019 at 7:45:46 AM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 10:16:56 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
Sounds to me that this method of staying low in ground effect for low tow position will increase the time we spend in the dangerous zone below 200 feet, in addition to transitioning through the wake while low and slow. Personally I prefer to spend as less time as possible down low, and would rather transition to low tow position at safe altitude and safe speed. Especially at high density altitude such as we have in the west, fully ballasted combined with not so powerful towplane, the last thing I would want is to purposely stay in ground effect at the end of the runway while the tow plane slowly climbs higher. I never tried this, so maybe it is not as bad as i think it is.

Ramy
One reason I will never do this in a ballasted glider is wind shear.

Low tow increases the glider pilot's vulnerability to a slow tow.

best,
Evan
If excessively low on tow wind shear can be a factor. Properly flown, my experience is that it is not.
Possibly you can explain your second contention. Slow is slow no matter which position you are in.
UH

--
Dan, 5J

On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 10:16:56 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
Sounds to me that this method of staying low in ground effect for low tow position will increase the time we spend in the dangerous zone below 200 feet, in addition to transitioning through the wake while low and slow. Personally I prefer to spend as less time as possible down low, and would rather transition to low tow position at safe altitude and safe speed. Especially at high density altitude such as we have in the west, fully ballasted combined with not so powerful towplane, the last thing I would want is to purposely stay in ground effect at the end of the runway while the tow plane slowly climbs higher. I never tried this, so maybe it is not as bad as i think it is.

Ramy

My experience is that the slightly improved takeoff performance puts the glider at an equal to slightly higher height shortly after transition to the tug climbing attitude.
UH

And I think this is an example of not being properly trained in low tow.
You are in ground effect until the towplane reaches the proper sight view in front of the glider which is not too far off the ground.
If you are looking up at the bottom of the towplane, you waited too long. This would accentuate the negative effect of wind gradient.

OK, I will start with.....I am biased to UH, he was one of my early instructors and we have other connections.

The "only" time I see an issue with low tow is with a VERY high wind gradient and someone being waaaayyyyyy too low near the ground.
The relevant airspeed of the tug vs. the glider (especially on a weaker tug) may put the glider in a poor position speed wise.

I will say, I have towed out of our field on very gusty days with, about a 45* cross wind, near gross weight (say, a ASW-20 A or C, so, about 9lbs/sqft.).
Yes, it ''twas sporty down low", why not? Big cross wind, over trees, higher wingloading, etc.

I have had rope breaks and a few TP dumped ropes while low tow, the rope just drops below the glider, try to drop a broken rope over the field on the grass.

As to the towpilots, what I have heard is that low tow allows them to trim a climb in their ship, thus less tiring over a day. High tow is usually outside the trim limits, thus always using your arms to maintain a climb pitch.. Part of this is a correct low tow puts the glider basically on the pitch line from tug spinner and down the rope to the glider...

I remember decades ago in upstate NY at a contest. Summer day, ballast, weak towplane (leaving site and tug out, not trying to slam the site). I started in high tow. We were attempting to do circles close to the field to clear terrain, I ended up in low tow since I was just hanging on. It appeared that it helped climb a bit, but I was not happy.

In general, the "perfect world" done wrong/incorrect still sucks and may be dangerous.

At our place, we teach both.
Other places, we do as they do, but if it gets bad, we may fall back to what we have more time with.

A search on RAS will likely pop up multiple threads with the same basic question, which tow is better?

I guess this discussion is akin to, "what contest rules should we use?", sheesh......