Swift Boat Veterans For Truth: Are They Going To Sink John Kerry?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

His quoted words in question were not delivered to Congress; he made
that
statement instead on national television:


How do you know that?


Because I read the entire transcript of his testimony and did not find the
bit about him acknowledging that he had himself supposedly committed "war
crimes", which was the subject in question?

According to The Boston Globe he said it before the
Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

Then the Globe is wrong. He DID say it, but he said it during an interview
on "Meet the Press", not during his Senate testimony. During his testimony
he was more wishy-washy, though he still managed to indict virtually the
entire leadership chain from company level on up--but his allegations were
all based upon his having bought into the WSI crap, hook, line, and sinker.
If you really want to question his testimony itself, then ask for the
details of that alleged case where he claimed to have been "pinned down in a
ditch while retrieving bodies" bit...sounds like another tall tale from
Kerry, IMO.

Brooks

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

His quoted words in question were not delivered to Congress; he
made that statement instead on national television:


How do you know that?


Because I read the entire transcript of his testimony and did not find the
bit about him acknowledging that he had himself supposedly committed "war
crimes", which was the subject in question?


How do you know that transcript contained all of his statements?



According to The Boston Globe he said it before the
Senate Foreign Relations Committee.


Then the Globe is wrong.


Maybe. The reviewer at The Boston Globe described the work as "
well-researched biographical history". How do we know your research is
better than his?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

His quoted words in question were not delivered to Congress; he
made that statement instead on national television:


How do you know that?


Because I read the entire transcript of his testimony and did not find
the
bit about him acknowledging that he had himself supposedly committed
"war
crimes", which was the subject in question?


How do you know that transcript contained all of his statements?

You know what Steven? I am a pretty firm supporter of Bush, but your
continued catterwalling about this is beginning to make me rethink the
situation...(not really, but if this is how you handle the folks who are
anti-Kerry, then you might want to rethink your strategy or lack thereof).

Yes, it was a complete transcript of his testimony, from gavel to gavel, to
include the questioning posed to him by the committee members. If you are
really interested in reading it yourself, do a Google on "Kerry Vietnam
testimony transcript" and you should be able to find it yourself.




According to The Boston Globe he said it before the
Senate Foreign Relations Committee.


Then the Globe is wrong.


Maybe. The reviewer at The Boston Globe described the work as "
well-researched biographical history". How do we know your research is
better than his?

Go and dig up your own trnscript and read it, then go and read a transcript
of his 18 April 71 "Meet the Press" interview; you will find the quote of
interest in the latter, and not the former. When you have found said
transcript, see if YOU can find the quote in question--if you do, get back
to me and I'll happily apologize (I'd be just tickled if he could be shown
to have made that statement in his testimony as well as on national TV). If
you can't you owe me one, OK? Now toodle off and do your homework and get
back to me. Stop acting as if this is the first time a newspaper has screwed
up in regards to the details. And that is all you are arguing--the details,
since I have already told you that yes, he did say it, but in a different
forum from what you though it to be.

Brooks

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message ...
"david raoul derbes" wrote in message
...

I've read Kerry's testimony before the Senate, and it is powerful stuff.
It does not read to me as if he is blaming any soldier, but YMMV.

His "testimony", which you say was so "powerful", was based upon "voodoo",
which is about the best way to characterize the "Winter Soldier
Investigation" nonsense. That Jane Fonda sponsored circus has been pretty
thoroughly discredited as a "factual source" (the DoD investigators who
looked into the claims made in that "trial" threw their hands up after
finding that the "witnesses" were either not even who they claimed they
were, but often had never even been in Vietnam, or those who had were not
assigned to frontline combat units, etc.--see the excellent book by Burkett
and Whitley, "Stolen Valor", for a more complete indictment of WSI).



Here is a list of WSI witnesses. Please tell us which ones are
discussed
in Burkett's book:


Alex Primm, 26, SP/4 (E-4), Public Information Office, 1st Logistics
Command, Headquarters (September 1968 to June 1969)

Allen Akers, 25, Pfc. (E-2), "E" Co., 2nd Bn., 4th Marine Reg., 3rd
Marine Division (May 1965 to March 1966)

Allan Crouse, 22 (E-4), 3rd Engineers Brigade, 82nd Airborne Division
(January 1969 to December 1969)

Barry Hopkins, 23, 3/39th, 9th Infantry Division (January 1969 to
January 1970)

Bill Perry, 23, Pfc. (E-3), "A" Co., 1/506, 101st Airborne Division
(November 1966 to August 1968)

Carl Rippberger, 23, (E-4), "K" Troop, 3rd Squad, 11th Armored Cav.
Reg., attached to 9th Infantry Division (May 1967 to May 1968)

Charles Leffler, 25, Pfc. (E-3), "G" Co., 2nd Bn., 26 Marine Reg., 9th
Marine Amphibious Brigade, LRRP, attached to 1st and 3rd Marine
Division (September 1968 to September 1969)

Charles Stephens, 24, Pfc. (E-3), 1/327, 101st Airborne Division
(December 1965 to February 1967)

Christopher Simpson, 21, Cpl. (E-4), "E" Co., 2nd Bn., 5th Marine
Regiment, 1st Marine Div. (1967-1968)

Christopher Soares, 20, L/Cpl. (E-3), "G" Co., 2nd Bn., 9th Marine
Reg., 3rd Marine Division (February 1969 to April 1969)

Curtis Wingrodski, 22, SP/4, 59th Scout Dog, 11th Brigade, Americal
Division (March 1969 to October 1969)

David Bishop, 21, L/Cpl., "H" Co., 2nd Bn., 5th Marine Regiment, 1st
Marine Division

David Chiles, 24, SP/4 (E-4), 3/4, 25th Infantry Division (January
1968 to December 1968)

David Cohen, Naval Coastal, Division 11 (November 1966 to November
1967)

David Stark, 25, SP/5 (E-5), 524 Military Intelligence Detachment
(October 1967 to October 1968)

Dennis Butts, 24, SP/4 (E-4), HHQ Co., 2/12, 25th Infantry Division
and "E" Co., 4/39, 9th Infantry Division (September 1966 to September
1967)

Dennis Caldwell, 24, CWO-2, "A" Trp., 3/17, Air Cav., 1st Aviation
Brigade (October 1968 to October 1969)

Don Pugsley, 23, SP/4, 5th Special Forces (October 1969 to December
1969)

Donald Donner, 24, SP/4 (E-4), 20th Brigade, 86th Combat Engineers
(August 1967 to July 1968)

Don Dzagulones, 23, SP/5, 635th Military Intelligence Detachment,
attached to 11th Infantry Brigade, Americal Division (January 1969 to
December 1969)

Douglas Craig, 22, SP/4, "D" Co., 2nd Bn., 8th Brigade, 1st Air Cav.
Division (December 1968 to August 1969)

Doug Wright, SP/4, 1/6, 198 LIB, Americal Division

Ed Murphy, 23, Sgt. (E-5), 1/6, 198 LIB, Americal Division (October
1967 to September 1968)

Ernie Sachs, 27, Captain, Medium Helicopter Squadron 362, Marine Air
Group 36, 1st Marine Division (August 1966 to September 1967)

Eugene Keys, 25, SP/4 (E-4), 3/4 25th Infantry Division (February 1966
to February 1967)

Franklin Shepard, 23, S. Sgt. (E-6), 5/60, 9th Infantry Division
(March 1968 to August 1969)

Fred Bernath, 26, 1st Lt., 101st MP Co., 101st Airborne Division
(December 1968 to October 1969)

Fred Nienke, 21, Sgt. (E-5), "D" Co., 1st Bn., 5th Mor. Reg., 1st
Marine Division (July 1967 to February 1968); 1st Prov. Rifle Co., Mag
36, 1st Marine Air Wing, 1st Marine Div. (January 1969 to August 1969)

Gary Keyes, 22, SP/4, "E" Troop, 1st Cav. Reg., 11th Brigade, Americal
Division (April 1969 to March 1970)

Gordon Stewart, 20, Sgt. (E-5), "H" Co., 2nd Bn., 9th Marine Reg., 3rd
Marine Div. (September 1968 to September 1969)

Jack Bronaugh, 21, Pvt. (E-1), "E" Btry. 213, 2nd Bn., 27 Marine Reg.;
H & S Bn., 7th Marine POW Compound; 1st Bn., 5th Marine Regiment;
MAC-11, H & MS-11, 1st Marine Air Wing, 1st Marine Division (February
1968 to October 1969)

Jack Smith, 27, S/Sgt. (E-6), HQ Battery, 12th Marine Reg., 3rd Marine
Division (January 1969 to December 1969)

James Duffy, 23, SP/5 (E-5), 228 Avn. Bn., 1st Air Cav. Div. (February
1967 to April 1968)

Jamie Henry, 23, Sgt., 1/35 Inf., 3rd Brigade, 4th Infantry Division
(August 1967 to August 1968)

James Mackay, 20, Sgt. (E-5), HHQ 3rd Brigade, 9th Inf. Div. (October
1968 to August 1970)

James Umenhofer, SP/4 (E-4), 2/501, 101st Airborne Division (November
1969 to October 1970)

Jim Weber, 24, Sgt. (E-5), "A" Co., 1/6 and 1/46, 198 LIB, Americal
Division (November 1967 to November 1968)

Joe Bangert, 22, Sgt. (E-5), VMO-6, PMAG-39, 1st Marine Air Wing, 1st
Marine Division (October 1968 to October 1969)

Joe Galbally, 23, SP/4 (E-4), 1/6, 198 LIB, Americal Division (October
1967 to April 1968)

John Beitzel, 21, Sgt. (E-5), 4/21, 11th Brigade, Americal Division
(January 1969 to January 1970)

John Birch, 24, Cpl. (E-4), "B" Co., 3rd Shore Party Bn., 4th Marine
Reg., 3rd Marine Division (May 1965 to August 1966)

John Hartner, 26, Sgt. (E-5), H & HD 3rd Brigade, H & HD 2nd Brigade,
4th Infantry Division (November 1969 to August 1970)

John Henry, 26, SP/4, 2/60, 1/11 Artillery, 9th Infantry Division
(March 1968 to February 1969)

John Lytle, 24, SP/4 (E-4), "E" Co., 6/15 Arty., 1st Infantry Division
(August 1967 to March 1969)

John Mallory, 24, Captain, 1st Sq., 11th Arm. Cav. Reg., 1st Air Cav.
Division (May 1969 to May 1970)

Kenneth Campbell, 21, Cpl. (E-4), "A" Btry., 1st Bn., 11th Marine
Regiment, 1st Marine Div., scouted for "B" Co., 1st Bn., 1st Marine
Regiment, 1st Marine Division (February 1968 to March 1969)

Kenneth Ruth, 26, (E-4), HHQ Co., 2/12 Air Cav. Reg., 1st Air Cav.
Div. (February 1966 to February 1967)

Kevin Byrne, 21, Sgt. (E-5), 42nd Scout Dog, 1st Brigade, 101st
Airborne Division (November 1968 to November 1969)

Kevin Delay, 20, Cpl., H & S Co., 3rd Bn., 1st Marine Regiment, 1st
Marine Division (October 1969 to March 1970)

Larry Brooks, 21, Pfc., 2nd Bn., 7th Marine Reg., 1st Marine Division
(July 1969 to January 1970)

Larry Craig, 29, SP/4, Public Information Office, 25th Infantry
Division (1966 to 1967)

Mark Lenix, 24, 1st Lt., 1/11th Arty. and 2/39 Infantry, 9th Infantry
Division (1968 to 1969)

Mike Nakayamo, 1st Bn., 5th Marines, 1st Marine Division

Michael Damron, 24, Pvt. (E-1), "B" Co., 3rd Tank Bn., 3rd Marine
Reg., 3rd Marine Division (September 1966 to October 1967)

Michael Erard, 29, SP/5 (E-5), 3/503, 173rd Airborne Brigade (April
1969 to March 1970)

Michael Farrell, 24, SP/4 (E-4), "A" Co., 2/60, 9th Infantry Division
(January 1967 to January 1968)

Michael Kenny, 20, 2nd Bn., 26th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division

Michael Miziaszek, 22, SP/4 (E-4), 1st Brigade, 101st Airborne
Division, FSSE (December 1968 to January 1970)

Michael McCusker, 29, (2) Sgt. (E-5), Public Information Office, 1st
Marine Division (1966 to 1967)

Murphy Lloyd, 27, (2) Sgt. (E-5), "D" Co., 4th Bn., 173rd Airborne
Brigade (February 1967 to February 1968)

Nathan Hale, 23, SP/5, M.I. Detachment, 198 L.I.B., Americal Division
(December 1967 to December 1968)

Orville Carey, 1st Logistics Command

Patrick Ostrenga, "D" Co., 25th Infantry Division (February to
December)

Paul Olimpieri, 23, Cpl. (E-4), "D" Co., 1st Bn., 5th Marine Regiment,
1st Marine Division (1967-1968)

Paul Williams, 24, L/Cpl. (E-3), "A" Btry., 1st Bn., 12th Marine
Regiment, 3rd Marine Division (May 1966 to May 1967)

Robert Clark, 22, L/Cpl. (E-3), "H&S" Co. & "G" Co., 2nd Bn., 9th
Marine Reg., 3rd Marine Division (May 1969 to May 1970)

Robert S. Craig, 23, Pfc. (E-2), 2nd Bn., 5th Marine Regiment, 1st
Marine Division (August 1966 to December 1967)

Robert Kruch, 25, Pfc. (E-3), 3/21, 196 LIB, Americal Division

Robert McConnachie, 22, Sgt. (E-5), 2/28th, 1st Infantry (October 1967
to October 1968)

Robert Wiktorski, 22, SP/4 (E-4), "C" Co., 2/12 Air Cav. Reg., 1st Air
Cav. Div. (May 1968 to May 1969)

Ronald Palosaari, 23, SP/4, 1/6, 198 LIB, Americal Division (1967 to
1968)

Ron Podlaski, 24, Sgt. (E-5), 5th Special Forces Group (April 1968 to
April 1969)

Ron Newton, 24, Pfc. (E-3), 3rd Brigade, HHQ Co., 704 Maintenance Bn.,
4th Infantry Division (July 1966 to June 1967)

Russell Kogut, 22, WO-1, 155 Assault Helicopter Co. (May 1968 to March
1969)

Sam Bunge, 1st Lt., "B" Co., 3/187, 101st Airborne Division (July 1968
to June 1969)

Sam Schorr, SP/4 (E-4), 86th Combat Engineers (September 1966 to
September 1967)

Scott Camile, 24, Sgt. (E-5), 1st Bn., 11th Marine Regiment, 1st
Marine Division

Scott Moore, 26, 1st Lt., 2/39th, 9th Infantry Division (1968 to 1969)

Sean Newton, 24, L/Cpl. (E-3), 3rd Bn., 7th Marine Reg., 1st Marine
Division (February 1966 to December 1966); "D" Co., 1/26, 3rd Combined
Action Group, 3rd Marine Div. (August 1967 to August 1968)

Steve Pitkin, 20, SP/4, "C" Co., 2/239, 9th Infantry Division (May
1969 to July 1969)

Steve Noetzel, 31, SP/4, 5th Special Forces Group Augmentation (May
1963 to May 1964)

Steve Rose, 26, U.S.N. Corpsmen (E-5), HQ Bn., 4th Marine Reg., 3rd
Marine Division (December 1966 to December 1967)

Ted Eckert, 21, Sgt. (E-5), MAG-16; Support Group-17, 1st Marine Air
Wing, 1st Marine Division (July 1969 to August 1970)

Thomas Heidtman, 26, Pfc. (E-3), 3rd Bn., 5th Marine Regiment, 1st
Marine Division (October 1966 to November 1967)

Timon Hagelin, 21, SP/4 (E-4), Graves Registration Platoon, 243 Field
Serv. Co., 1st Logistics Command (August 1968 to August 1969)

Vernon Shibla, 27, SP/4, Public Information Office, 25th Infantry
Division (1966 to 1967)

Walter Hendrickson, 22, Pfc (E-2), "F" Co., 2nd Bn., 9th Marine
Regiment, 3rd Marine Division (November 1968 to April 1969)

William Bezanson, 24, Pfc., 4/3, 11th Brigade, Americal Division and
123rd Aviation Bn. (1967 to 1968)

William Hatton, 23, Cpl. (E-4), Engineer Mn. Plt., FLSG Bravo, 3rd
Marine Div. (October 1968 to September 1969)

William Rice, 21, SP/4, 3/47th and HQ, 3rd Brigade, 9th Infantry
Division (January 1969 to January 1970)



--

FF

"Chris Manteuffel" wrote in message
m...

Are you sure that that quote is correct?


It's a copy and paste from The Boston Globe site. Here's the full
paragraph:

His personal ambitions notwithstanding, Kerry gave clear public voice to the
same position taken by the veterans group. In his appearance before William
Fulbright's Senate Foreign Relations Committee in April 1971, Kerry
volunteered this straightforward testimony: "I committed the same kinds of
atrocities as thousands of others in that I shot in free fire zones, used
harassment and interdiction fire, joined in search and destroy missions, and
burned villages. All of these acts were established policies from the top
down, and the men who ordered this are war criminals."


Here's a link to it:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/liv...rys_conflicts/



http://www.cwes01.com/13790/23910/ktpp179-210.pdf

is a scan of the testimony as printed by the GPO. I have spent a lot
of time with these transcripts from the same period and the font and
format match the ones I have pulled out on paper exactly. If it has
been edited someone has gone to a lot of trouble. Note that Human
Events, the group that supplied the transcript, is an anti-Kerry
group; their analysis of the testimony is at

http://www.cwes01.com/13790/23910/ktpp179-210.pdf

It never mentions any quote like that you provided either.


Gee. Do ya think The Boston Globe is an anti-Kerry group as well?



I can't find any such quote where he admits to war crimes in his sworn
testimony as recorded here. The closest I can find (p. 6-7 of the
sourced document) is somewhat different.

"We are here in Washington also to say that the problem of this war is
not just a question of war and diplomacy. It is part and parcel of
everything that we are trying as human beings to communicate to people
in this country, the question of racism, which is rampant in the
military, and so many other questions also, the use of weapons, the
hypocrisy in our taking umbrage in the Geneva Conventions and using
that as justification for a continuation of this war, when we are more
guilty than any other body of violations of those Geneva Conventions,
[CDM note- 1954 Geneva Conventions that created North and South
Vietnam, not the 1949 Geneva Conventions on the laws of Land Warfare]
in the use of free fire zones, harassment interdiction fire, search
and destroy missions, the bombings, the torture of prisoners, the
killings of prisoners, accepted policy by many units in South Vietnam.
That is what we are trying to say. It is part and parcel of
everything."

From reading the testimony that is closest I can find to the quote you
provide above. If you could provide a source I'd be much appreciative.


You're welcome.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Chris Manteuffel" wrote in message
m...

Are you sure that that quote is correct?



It's a copy and paste from The Boston Globe site. Here's the full
paragraph:

His personal ambitions notwithstanding, Kerry gave clear public voice to the
same position taken by the veterans group. In his appearance before William
Fulbright's Senate Foreign Relations Committee in April 1971, Kerry
volunteered this straightforward testimony: "I committed the same kinds of
atrocities as thousands of others in that I shot in free fire zones, used
harassment and interdiction fire, joined in search and destroy missions, and
burned villages. All of these acts were established policies from the top
down, and the men who ordered this are war criminals."


Does this mean that LBJ was a war criminal?


--
---------------------------------
The Golden Years Sux.

In article et,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

It's a copy and paste from The Boston Globe site.

'Cuz the Boston Globe is a MUCH more reliable source than the actual
transcripts of the actual meeting where he supposedly actually said this.