If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
John Keeney wrote:
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ... In message , Scott MacEachern writes "Paul J. Adam" wrote in message . .. Personal beneificiary of this, since we got a truckload of 84mm rounds and sort-of-orders not to return any... How's your hearing now, anyway? Poor. Probably more to do with too many 7.62mm blank and occasional thunderflashes indoors with no hearing protection, than with a few 84mm rounds fired while wearing ear defenders over ear plugs. (Not sure if hearing protection is now mandated for FIBUA/MOUT, but that could get _loud_ in a hurry) I can attest to how loud 7.62 blank is during MOUT training (think of firing inside of small rooms of multi-story block building with bare walls & floors). I expended the better part of a thousand rounds out of an M-14 last week in just those circumstances. The M-14 doesn't even touch the noise generated by the breaching charges, SAWs and flash-bangs that are common in the MOUT environment. If you did much MOUT stuff with out at least your fingers growing out of your ears I'm surprised your hearing is as good as "poor". All that being said, well, expect a lot of bad hearing in the years to come. Heck, I have bad enough hearing just from being in the vicinity of a couple thousand ordinary firecrackers (and pyrotechnic devices involving up to a pound and a half of flash powder) over the years, without hearing protectors. I can't imagine doing MOUT without any form of ear guards... -- Marc Reeve Some guy at a desk somewhere ^reverse^ for email |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
I can't
imagine doing MOUT without any form of ear guards... huh? What did he say? What? Gordon 2,000 helo flight hours -- nuf said about hearing loss! :\ ====(A+C==== USN SAR Its always better to lose -an- engine, not -the- engine. |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
"Marc Reeve" wrote in message ... John Keeney wrote: "Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ... (Not sure if hearing protection is now mandated for FIBUA/MOUT, but that could get _loud_ in a hurry) I can attest to how loud 7.62 blank is during MOUT training (think of firing inside of small rooms of multi-story block building with bare walls & floors). I expended the better part of a thousand rounds out of an M-14 last week in just those circumstances. The M-14 doesn't even touch the noise generated by the breaching charges, SAWs and flash-bangs that are common in the MOUT environment. If you did much MOUT stuff with out at least your fingers growing out of your ears I'm surprised your hearing is as good as "poor". All that being said, well, expect a lot of bad hearing in the years to come. Heck, I have bad enough hearing just from being in the vicinity of a couple thousand ordinary firecrackers (and pyrotechnic devices involving up to a pound and a half of flash powder) over the years, without hearing protectors. I can't imagine doing MOUT without any form of ear guards... Mine are in. Seems some units consider them an option that they hope they won't exercise: the tactical clues from unplugged ears being more important to their lives than good hearing down the road. |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
In message , Marc Reeve
writes John Keeney wrote: I can attest to how loud 7.62 blank is during MOUT training (think of firing inside of small rooms of multi-story block building with bare walls & floors). I expended the better part of a thousand rounds out of an M-14 last week in just those circumstances. The M-14 doesn't even touch the noise generated by the breaching charges, SAWs and flash-bangs that are common in the MOUT environment. If you did much MOUT stuff with out at least your fingers growing out of your ears I'm surprised your hearing is as good as "poor". All that being said, well, expect a lot of bad hearing in the years to come. Heck, I have bad enough hearing just from being in the vicinity of a couple thousand ordinary firecrackers (and pyrotechnic devices involving up to a pound and a half of flash powder) over the years, without hearing protectors. I can't imagine doing MOUT without any form of ear guards... Trouble is, maintaining both cohesion and tempo is really important in FIBUA (or rather OBUA as it's now called - we conduct Operations in Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which means a lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted commands from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs in place. So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later on, in order to keep control of your fireteam during the action. (You might be able to wear earplugs under Personal Role Radio, though.) Not sure if that's still policy today - the fact that we were firing 7.62mm should date my experience Important rule of why you don't over-divide your forces: a keen platoon commander, very freshly minted, decided that our fireteam should simultaneously clear upper and lower floors of a house in Imber. So, we cover as two go up the assault ladder, then myself and my buddy go in to clear the ground floor. (You can already see where this one's going, can't you?) Right up to the point where I see movement and a weapon up the stairs, snap off a couple of rounds and shout "Potts! Enemy, top of stairs!"... as shots ring out from the top of the stairs along with a yell of "Emu! Enemy, stairs!" Pause. Curse volubly and imaginatively. Express gratitude to $DEITY of choice that this is a training exercise and we were only using blank rounds for our blue-on-blue. Explain events to Pl Comd and advise an all-or-nothing approach: suggesting that next time, entry team goes in upstairs and the other pair content themselves with covering the exits. Suggestion accepted, experience promulgated. Hopefully, having made or seen made the mistake in training, it will be avoided in reality... there are so many new and exciting ways to cock up, why repeat old ones? -- He thinks too much: such men are dangerous. Julius Caesar I:2 Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ...
Trouble is, maintaining both cohesion and tempo is really important in FIBUA (or rather OBUA as it's now called - we conduct Operations in Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which means a lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted commands from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs in place. So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later on, in order to keep control of your fireteam during the action. I wonder how much earplugs actually hurt communication in OUBA. I know that on my motorcycle, while wearing earplugs under my helmet means I can't hear subtle changes in engine noise, if I don't have them in I'm noticeably more fatigued and less alert after as little as 15 minutes. I could easily imagine that the slight decrease in hearing on average could be outweighed by the large increase in hearing during the five seconds after shots being fired. -jake |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
"Paul J. Adam" wrote:
In message , Marc Reeve writes John Keeney wrote: I can attest to how loud 7.62 blank is during MOUT training (think of firing inside of small rooms of multi-story block building with bare walls & floors). I expended the better part of a thousand rounds out of an M-14 last week in just those circumstances. The M-14 doesn't even touch the noise generated by the breaching charges, SAWs and flash-bangs that are common in the MOUT environment. If you did much MOUT stuff with out at least your fingers growing out of your ears I'm surprised your hearing is as good as "poor". All that being said, well, expect a lot of bad hearing in the years to come. Heck, I have bad enough hearing just from being in the vicinity of a couple thousand ordinary firecrackers (and pyrotechnic devices involving up to a pound and a half of flash powder) over the years, without hearing protectors. I can't imagine doing MOUT without any form of ear guards... Trouble is, maintaining both cohesion and tempo is really important in FIBUA (or rather OBUA as it's now called - we conduct Operations in Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which means a lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted commands from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs in place. So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later on, in order to keep control of your fireteam during the action. (You might be able to wear earplugs under Personal Role Radio, though.) Not sure if that's still policy today - the fact that we were firing 7.62mm should date my experience Important rule of why you don't over-divide your forces: a keen platoon commander, very freshly minted, decided that our fireteam should simultaneously clear upper and lower floors of a house in Imber. So, we cover as two go up the assault ladder, then myself and my buddy go in to clear the ground floor. (You can already see where this one's going, can't you?) Right up to the point where I see movement and a weapon up the stairs, snap off a couple of rounds and shout "Potts! Enemy, top of stairs!"... as shots ring out from the top of the stairs along with a yell of "Emu! Enemy, stairs!" Pause. Curse volubly and imaginatively. Express gratitude to $DEITY of choice that this is a training exercise and we were only using blank rounds for our blue-on-blue. Explain events to Pl Comd and advise an all-or-nothing approach: suggesting that next time, entry team goes in upstairs and the other pair content themselves with covering the exits. Suggestion accepted, experience promulgated. Hopefully, having made or seen made the mistake in training, it will be avoided in reality... there are so many new and exciting ways to cock up, why repeat old ones? I recall a similar scene in the german film "Stalingrad". They're clearing an apartment building going floor to floor, but unfortunately two groups come around a corner/top and bottom of stairs (I forget which) at the same time. Newbie shoots and is feeling good that he's got them before they get him, then realizes that his now dead target is wearing feldgrau, and is pretty disturbed. Old head looks at him as he comes up, quickly sizes up the situation and casually says something like, "Ach, don't worry about it. Same thing happened to me my first time," and then moves past to continue the clearance. Guy |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
|
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Paul J. Adam
Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which means a lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted commands from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs in place. So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later on, in order to keep control of your fireteam during the action. Why on Earth aren't active (electronic) ear mufflers used nowadays? Like many hunters and shooters have done for quite some time. Such mufflers are rather expensive, of course, and I can understand that poor armies, resistance fighters and such can't afford them. But to hi-tech armies that actually are currently engaged in FIBUA, like the US one, damaging the hearing of its soldiers seems much less affordable than getting another piece of fancy kit. And it's not just about hearing protection. A soldier with his ears ringing after eg fireing his weapon within a confined space without hearing protection, will have immediately, but temporarily, much degraded hearing. And a soldier subject to a very loud noise, like a nearby explosion, may loose his hearing immediately and completely for some time. Thus, I'd assume that active mufflers would enhance the ability to sustain FIBUA, much for the same reasons that non-active hearing protection, like simple plugs, might impair the ability to do FIBUA, at least initially, ie before the soldiers being subject to damaging noise levels. Moreover, shouldn't practically all modern military helmets be designed to be compatible with low-profile ear cups, and vice versa? So why not use them? Not only do electronic ear mufflers allow non-damaging sounds to pass, but the amplification can be adjusted, so that quiet sounds are enhanced. Coupled to a directonal microphone (and especially with a parabolic antenna), even very quiet sounds can be heard over considerable distances, which could sometimes, in special circumstances, be useful. Plugging one's radio output to the ear muffs, the voice com will be much easier to hear in a noisy environment, as the mufflers can be used to cut the background noise. In a quiet environment, stealthiness might improve slightly too, as even less received voice com would escape the muffs than a simple unshielded head-set. Or is there somehting that I miss? Is, after all, some essential information lost when the sound passes through the artificial, but hopefully hi-fi, electronics before reaching the ear? The muffs do conserve stereophonic (directional) info of course, but is there eg problems due to the disparity between the artificial sound from the muffs vs the sound propagating through the bones? That one can't adapt to with training? |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
"M" *@*.* wrote in message ... Paul J. Adam Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which means a lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted commands from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs in place. So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later on, in order to keep control of your fireteam during the action. Why on Earth aren't active (electronic) ear mufflers used nowadays? Like many hunters and shooters have done for quite some time. Trying to wear ear muffs under a kevlar helmet would be a bit of a chore, for one. I'd guess that some sort of hearing enhancement and noise suppression system is included in the Army's various future soldier equipment research efforts now underway, but the biggest stumbling block to all of these new systems (to include personal HUD's, etc.) right now is *power*, and your muffs just add to that--another power-demanding device. Many Army leaders have identified the need for lightweight, long-lasting batteries/power supplies as being the biggest single hurdle we have to get across if we are going to see "robosoldier" type systems go beyond the R&D effort to actual fielding; right now we are just not there yet. Brooks snip |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
M *@*.* wrote:
Paul J. Adam Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which means a lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted commands from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs in place. So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later on, in order to keep control of your fireteam during the action. Why on Earth aren't active (electronic) ear mufflers used nowadays? Like many hunters and shooters have done for quite some time. [snip] I assume you're talking about the Bose noise canceling headsets. They could be good for that purpose, but not in all environments. The regular headset costs $300. The aviation headset costs $1,000. Cautions and Advisories: From the Aviation Headset X Owner's Guide: http://www.bose.com/controller;jsessionid=BviC3pLtj1xkevlZm7b8o4e9223Y aghwnSATt5v2E22zwc8dgVnj!-373760557!1879924776?event=VIEW_PRODUCT_PAGE_EVENT &product=headsetx_headset_inthebox&linksource=prod uctnav_txt_inthebox&pageName=/home_entertainment/headphones_headsets/headsets/headset_x/features.jsp (mind the wrap) Click on 'Owner's Guide'. For the Quiet Comfort headsets: http://www.bose.com/controller;jsessionid=BviC3pLtj1xkevlZm7b8o4e9223Y aghwnSATt5v2E22zwc8dgVnj!-373760557!1879924776?event=VIEW_PRODUCT_PAGE_EVENT &product=qc2_headphones_inthebox&linksource=produc tnav_txt_inthebox&pageName=/home_entertainment/headphones_headsets/headphones/qc2/photos.jsp (mind the wrap) Click on 'Owner's Guide'. Both warn that familiar sounds may have an unfamiliar character when using the headphones. Also, the Quiet Comfort Owner's Guide specifically warns against using the headphones while driving on a public road or where the inability to hear outside sounds may present a danger to the user or others. That said, I can easily see a use for the aviation headsets in aircraft, tanks and other armored vehicles. I don't know whether training alone would be enough for ground troops in all environments. If you let some outside sound through, the system would have to be designed to digitally filter the sounds of gun fire. It's possible - I've seen audio noise reduction systems (dbx, IIRC) that effectively filtered only the transient noise (clicks, pops, etc.) from vinyl recordings. The question is would you want to do that if recognizing those sounds and being able to place them in your field of hearing could be the difference between life and death in a firefight? In that case, simple attenuation may be the better solution. Moreover, shouldn't practically all modern military helmets be designed to be compatible with low-profile ear cups, and vice versa? So why not use them? Good idea for a basic field helmet. Not only do electronic ear mufflers allow non-damaging sounds to pass, but the amplification can be adjusted, so that quiet sounds are enhanced. Coupled to a directonal microphone (and especially with a parabolic antenna), even very quiet sounds can be heard over considerable distances, which could sometimes, in special circumstances, be useful. Again, useful in some circumstances. Long-range surveillance, for example. | George Ruch | "Is there life in Clovis after Clovis Man?" |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Maybe GWB isn't lying....... | JD | Military Aviation | 26 | February 5th 04 12:35 AM |
Czechoslovak nuclear weapons? Warszaw Pact War Plans ( The Effects of a Global Thermonuclear War ...) | Matt Wiser | Military Aviation | 25 | January 17th 04 02:18 PM |
please stop bashing France | Grantland | Military Aviation | 233 | October 29th 03 01:23 AM |
What about the AIM-54 Pheonix Missile? | Flub | Military Aviation | 26 | October 5th 03 05:34 AM |
Laser simulator provides weapons training | Otis Willie | Military Aviation | 0 | August 28th 03 09:58 PM |