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#91
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In article , Vic Flintham
writes In article , Peter Twydell writes In article , ANDREW ROBERT BREEN writes In article , Kirk Stant wrote: Just one question: What is a "Squark"? Apologies - it was the Hawker Sea Hawk http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/seahawk/ A pretty little thing, and notably hardy and long-lived. While we're on the FAA trail, AFAIK the Fairey Gannet never dropped anything in anger. Not strictly true. Gannets of 847 NAS were operational in Cyprus between April 56 and November 59. They were on anti-smuggling (arms) patrols and although as far as I know they never dropped anything in anger they were there to do just that should the need arise. You could used the same argument for Javelins in Malaysia. The point is that they DIDN'T drop anything in anger, no matter how prepared they were to do so. -- Peter Ying tong iddle-i po! |
#92
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In article , John
Walker writes Vic Flintham wrote in message ... In article , Peter Twydell writes In article , ANDREW ROBERT BREEN writes In article , Kirk Stant wrote: Just one question: What is a "Squark"? Apologies - it was the Hawker Sea Hawk http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/seahawk/ A pretty little thing, and notably hardy and long-lived. While we're on the FAA trail, AFAIK the Fairey Gannet never dropped anything in anger. Not strictly true. Gannets of 847 NAS were operational in Cyprus between April 56 and November 59. They were on anti-smuggling (arms) patrols and although as far as I know they never dropped anything in anger they were there to do just that should the need arise. -- Vic Flintham Cold war military aviation http://www.vflintham.demon.co.uk Did the Indonesians ever use theirs in action? John --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.528 / Virus Database: 324 - Release Date: 16/10/03 I have no record, despite considerable research. Not sure if the Gannets were operational through the period in question. -- Vic Flintham Cold war military aviation http://www.vflintham.demon.co.uk |
#93
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Mike Marron wrote:
(Kirk Stant) wrote: Just for fun, off the top of your heads, which post-WW2 combat aircraft (any country) have NOT been used in their intended roles in an actual shooting war (or police action, or soccer riot, or whatever it's called these days)? And why? Some ROE: 1. Combat aircraft means it was designed or modified to employ air-to-air or air-to-ground/ship/boat weapons. 2. Combat means someone was activily shooting back (or really wanted to) while the aircraft was performing it's mission. 3. Let's leave out recce, that just gets too complicated! Could be wrong, but here goes: B-36, B-47, F-84F, F-89, F-106, F-101, F-86D, F-94C, Saab Draken, Saab 29, F-4D Skyray, F7U Cutlass, F9F (swept-wing) Cougar, Gloster Javelin, Avro Vulcan, Handley Page Victor, Supermarine Scimitar, Fiat G.91, English Electric Lightning, Dassault Mirage IV, Saab Viggen, Sukhoi Su-15, Shin Meiwa, Alpha Jet, Folland Gnat, BAe Hawk, Fuji T1F2, Supermarine Swift, Tupolov Tu-22, Tupulov Tu-26, B-58 Hustler, Tupolov Tu-16, North American B-45, Hawker Firebrand, Tupolov Tu-20, Hawker Siddeley Buccaneer, Hawker Sea Vixen, deHavilland Venom, McDonnell F2H-4 Banshee, North American FJ-4B Fury, deHavilland Vampire, Yakolev Yak-25A, Dassault Ouragen, McDonnell FH-1 Phantom, Hawker Sea Fury, Grumman F7F Tigercat, McDonnell F3H Demon, Supermarine Attacker... Yep. OK RAF V Bombers Vulcan dropped bombs on the Airfield at Port Stanley (Falklands '82). Valiant dropped bombs during the Suez Crisis in '56. Both involved AA so both are out. Canberra also bombed during Suez. The Victor was used as a Tanker in Falkland's and Gulf War I but I don't think it ever actually dropped bombs on anyone. Tanker Missions not Combat missions so.... Attacker - Korea. Sea Fury Korea, Malaya Suez. Gnat Indian/Pakistan wars. (Local Licensed version but...) Vampire / Venom used in different colonial wars in late 40's and 50's. Venom at least stood Cap during Suez. Buccaneer Lased and Dropped during Desert Storm. I will stick with Javelin and Sea Vixen as being in. Swift / Scimitar. Not sure about. Firebrand - was this operational ? Lightning - I think the Saudi's still had some on strength during Desert Storm but operational ? Not sure if these got a shot in during the "tanker War's". UK Lightning's did not get a combat shot. Ouragen Used by Isreal in Combat. Not sure if the French used them during Suez. Hawk - Trainer not a combat jet so should not be here. Alpha Jet - Deployed by the French over Bosnia etc. Not sure if they actually dropped ordinance or not. Need a list of what was used in "The Malay crisis", (dh Hornet Avro Lincoln scored there for a start) Korea, (Sea Fury, Meteor, Vampire & others)Suez, (Valiant, Canberra, Sperrin (? V-Bomber predesesor anyway) + a good mix of post war French kit. Congo ? Some weird stuff was used on both sides during those battles. I think the Portuguese G.91's may have been used in anger somewhere but recall is hazy. |
#94
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"Steven Vincent" wrote in message ... Mike Marron wrote: (Kirk Stant) wrote: Just for fun, off the top of your heads, which post-WW2 combat aircraft (any country) have NOT been used in their intended roles in an actual shooting war (or police action, or soccer riot, or whatever it's called these days)? And why? Some ROE: 1. Combat aircraft means it was designed or modified to employ air-to-air or air-to-ground/ship/boat weapons. 2. Combat means someone was activily shooting back (or really wanted to) while the aircraft was performing it's mission. 3. Let's leave out recce, that just gets too complicated! Could be wrong, but here goes: B-36, B-47, F-84F, F-89, F-106, F-101, F-86D, F-94C, Saab Draken, Saab 29, F-4D Skyray, F7U Cutlass, F9F (swept-wing) Cougar, Gloster Javelin, Avro Vulcan, Handley Page Victor, Supermarine Scimitar, Fiat G.91, English Electric Lightning, Dassault Mirage IV, Saab Viggen, Sukhoi Su-15, Shin Meiwa, Alpha Jet, Folland Gnat, BAe Hawk, Fuji T1F2, Supermarine Swift, Tupolov Tu-22, Tupulov Tu-26, B-58 Hustler, Tupolov Tu-16, North American B-45, Hawker Firebrand, Tupolov Tu-20, Hawker Siddeley Buccaneer, Hawker Sea Vixen, deHavilland Venom, McDonnell F2H-4 Banshee, North American FJ-4B Fury, deHavilland Vampire, Yakolev Yak-25A, Dassault Ouragen, McDonnell FH-1 Phantom, Hawker Sea Fury, Grumman F7F Tigercat, McDonnell F3H Demon, Supermarine Attacker... Yep. Actually, nope. Saab 29 did see some limited combat use under UN auspices in the Congo. F-94C is a bit picky, as the A model did see combat in Korea. You have noted the discrepancy vis a vis the V-Bombers. I believe the Libyans used the Tu-22 over Chad, or tried to. The Tu-16 was used by Egypt against Yemeni targets, and IIRC may have pulled a couple of ineffectual sorties against Israeli targets (it would be interesting to know if the PLAAF used any in their 1979 Vietnam incursion). The B-58 never flew a bombing mission, but IIRC it did do some recon work (with a recon pod ILO weapons pod) during the Cuban Missile Crisis. The B-45 flew many missions over Korea (and the USSR) in its recon role. OK RAF V Bombers Vulcan dropped bombs on the Airfield at Port Stanley (Falklands '82). Valiant dropped bombs during the Suez Crisis in '56. Both involved AA so both are out. Canberra also bombed during Suez. The Victor was used as a Tanker in Falkland's and Gulf War I but I don't think it ever actually dropped bombs on anyone. Tanker Missions not Combat missions so.... Attacker - Korea. Sea Fury Korea, Malaya Suez. Also Cuba, where Castro used them as late as the Bay of Pigs IIRC. Gnat Indian/Pakistan wars. (Local Licensed version but...) Vampire / Venom used in different colonial wars in late 40's and 50's. Venom at least stood Cap during Suez. Buccaneer Lased and Dropped during Desert Storm. And IIRC did some strike missions under its South African guise. I will stick with Javelin and Sea Vixen as being in. If you mean "in" the list of non-combatants, yes. Swift / Scimitar. Not sure about. Firebrand - was this operational ? Lightning - I think the Saudi's still had some on strength during Desert Storm but operational ? Not sure if these got a shot in during the "tanker War's". UK Lightning's did not get a combat shot. I believe the Saudi models were all gone by ODS, but they *did* use them in a ground attack role against Yemeni targets in the late sixties/early seventies timeframe IIRC. Ouragen Used by Isreal in Combat. Not sure if the French used them during Suez. ISTR they were also used in the Soccer War? Hawk - Trainer not a combat jet so should not be here. Wasn't there some concern over Indonesian use of the Hawk in combat operations? Alpha Jet - Deployed by the French over Bosnia etc. Not sure if they actually dropped ordinance or not. Need a list of what was used in "The Malay crisis", (dh Hornet Avro Lincoln scored there for a start) Korea, (Sea Fury, Meteor, Vampire & others)Suez, (Valiant, Canberra, Sperrin (? V-Bomber predesesor anyway) + a good mix of post war French kit. Congo ? Some weird stuff was used on both sides during those battles. I think the Portuguese G.91's may have been used in anger somewhere but recall is hazy. I think the G-91 may have seen some use by the Portugese in Angola. Brooks |
#95
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"Steven Vincent" You forgot the Canadian CF-100 Cunuck! |
#96
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H wrote:
"Jack G" kirjoitti et... Could add as well: Martin AM-1 Mauler Grumman AF-2S Guardian Jack "Kirk Stant" wrote in message .com... Just for fun, off the top of your heads, which post-WW2 combat aircraft (any country) have NOT been used in their intended roles in an actual shooting war (or police action, or soccer riot, or whatever it's called these days)? And why? Some ROE: 1. Combat aircraft means it was designed or modified to employ air-to-air or air-to-ground/ship/boat weapons. 2. Combat means someone was activily shooting back (or really wanted to) while the aircraft was performing it's mission. 3. Let's leave out recce, that just gets too complicated! To start things off, here are my USAF candidates: B-36 - Held back from Korea for Nuke mission. B-47 - Too early for Korea, too late for Vietnam (remember, no recce). F-84F - Too early for Korea (ef considered a separate aircraft from straight-wing F-84s), too late for Vietnam. Combat use by other countries? F-89 - Too late for Korea (?), not needed (no bomber threat). F-106 - Not needed in Vietnam - F-102s deployed instead. F-101 (Yeah, I know about the RF-101 in Cuba and Vietnam). Don't know why F-101Cs weren't used early in Vietnam. Being phased out by then? Everything else got lots of chances to do their thing. At first glance, looks like the US taxpayer is getting a pretty good deal for his money! Kirk (tired of all the non-mil av bull**** on this group) Calquin (copy of Mosquito) from Argentina Canadair CL-28 Argus Breguet 1150 Atlantic Bristol Brigand Malaya Crisis, Yemen/ Oman before the RAF pulled back past Suez. Lockheed P-3 Orion Beriev Be-6 Beriev Be-10 Beriev Be-12 Tupolev Tu-12 Tupolev Tu-14 The sea patrol planes such as the Breguet and the P3 were not intended to drop bombs anymore than most of the recce planes so I don't think should be open for discussion here. (I don't know if Nimrod claims a war drop during Falklands or ODS - it had a role in both but I don't think it actually launched a Harpoon, Torp or Sidewinder). |
#97
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"Steven Vincent" wrote in message ... H wrote: "Jack G" kirjoitti snip Lockheed P-3 Orion Beriev Be-6 Beriev Be-10 Beriev Be-12 Tupolev Tu-12 Tupolev Tu-14 The sea patrol planes such as the Breguet and the P3 were not intended to drop bombs anymore than most of the recce planes so I don't think should be open for discussion here. (I don't know if Nimrod claims a war drop during Falklands or ODS - it had a role in both but I don't think it actually launched a Harpoon, Torp or Sidewinder). P-3's have conducted wartime weapons delivery with the launch of SLAM's during Allied Force. www.vp4association.com/p3_orion/p-3.htm Brooks |
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