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#93
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Sep 17, 10:45*am, bildan wrote:
On Sep 16, 8:13*pm, RL wrote: Our club does a high volume of training and we see the same thing in terms of Schweizer trained pilots. There is typically a steep remedial training curve to build the finesse required to fly something as docile a Grob 103. Our instructors immediately recognize the Schweitzer induced habits that have to be unlearned. When this discussion occurs the cost issue always comes up. But really, what similar sport do you know that trains with antique equipment. Golf, skiing, boating, and even regular attendance at sports events are not inexpensive… and neither is soaring. If people/ clubs really want to fly in decent equipment they become creative and find a way. *My guess is that the perceived low cost of operating Schewizer equipment probably results in more people leaving the sport than the assumed high cost of operating good equipment. Bob On Sep 15, 11:13*am, Kevin Christner wrote: I have spent enough time instructing to see two types of students, Schweizer trained and everyone else. *Place these two types in an ASK-21. *Schweizer trained students often lack refined control coordination and almost always have little ability to control pitch and speed properly. *The other students seem to do much better. *The Schweizer simply does not require the refined control of more modern gliders to be flown in a way that seems coordinated. *Being trained in a Schweizer typically means you will need to be totally retrained to fly anything else, and the bad habits first learned will often creep back. Find me one world team member that thinks primary training in a Schweizer is a good idea. *I doubt you'll have any glowing advocates. KJC On Sep 15, 7:34*am, Tony wrote: The 2-33 is suffering the same metal fatigue problems in it's wings as the L-13. Is this statement based on actual issues with 2-33 wings or just the fact that "it is metal, it will fatigue eventually"? I see no mention in any of the Schweizer Service Bulletins about issues with 2-22 or 2-33 wing structure and have never heard of any problems either. I notice that 3 or 4 of the USA World Team members trained in Schweizers.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I watched a pilot total a G103. *He bounced on the first contact with the runway but not so the situation was unrecoverable. *I was close enough I could see his face as he mentally shifted to landing the 2-33 he was trained in. He wanted down and stopped RIGHT NOW so he tried to push a non-existent skid into the runway to stop the Grob. *The Grob responded with its characteristic nose-to-tail PIO bounce and broke up. I'd bet if you carefully analyzed every Grob 103 tail boom breaking accident, in the majority of the cases, you'd find a recently trained 2-33 pilot was at the controls. *When I look at a logbook and see initial training in a 2-33, I know it's going to take some through remedial training for a Grob transition.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Where did this guy ever get this dumb idea"???? His problem was not "training in a 2-33", it was poor, improper training, or bad habit after training!!!! This "jam the skid into the ground" deal with the 2-33 is an IMPROPER LANDING TECHNIQUE......should not be taught, should not be tolerated........ A 2-33 should be landed just like any other "nose dragger glider" (G-103 II or ASK 21 etc) Landing a 2-33, on touch down, the nose should be slightly high, the tailwheel low, almost toughing the ground, and the touch down on the main wheel..........the ground roll should be with the nose up, skid off the ground, rolling on the main wheel, using wheel brake if required, until the glider is so slow that the nose comes down by itself.......stick should be way back at this point.......glider should be nearly stopped before the skid touches the ground. I see many pilots do what I call "landing in a pile".....they touch down, and immediately let the stick go forward........jamming the nose wheel (or skid) onto the ground..........some even push the stick forward!!! WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!!!............ With a nose dragger glider, the nose wheel is NOT a "landing gear", it is merely for ground handling and slow taxi....SAME for the skid on a nose dragger glider.........it is not a "landing" skid, it is just to support the glider when stationary or during the very beginning of the take off roll, and the very end of the landing roll. Same for the nose wheel on a tri gear airplane........... Bad habits come easily.......in our repair shop, we have had a rash of airplane repairs where the tricycle gear airplane was landed nose wheel first.......(or bounced into a nose first landing) resulting in flatened front wheel, bent landing gear, bent firewall, and sometimes prop strike and engine rebuild.........I see "wheel barrow " landings at our field all the time......BAD TECHNIQUE!!!!! Airplanes, gliders, nose dragger, tri gear, tail dragger, all should be landed nose up, tail down. Landing loads taken by the main gear, and pitch control maintained throughout the ground roll....... So don't blame the 2-33...... Cookie |
#94
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Sep 18, 3:04*am, "
wrote: A 2-33 should be landed just like any other "nose dragger glider" (G-103 II or ASK 21 etc) Really? The correct landing procedure for a 2-33 (and Blanik) is a recipe for high energy landings in K-21s or G-103s (or worse case, a high sink rate bounced landing leading to the infamous "galloping Grob"!). I hope you have a long runway and a big budget for brake pads! Some older gliders (and not all nose draggers) require a flown on landing - tail low, but on the main wheel - due to the tail wheel not being stressed for landing forces. Examples are the 2-33 and Blanik (note, one is a nose dragger, one a tail dragger). This is similar in concept to a wheel landing in a taildragger airplane - or a somewhat flat normal landing in a tricycle-geared airplane. The trick is that once you have established the pitch attitude for touchdown, you can't continue to increase the angle of attack to slow down or you will touch the weak tail wheel/skid too early, so some judgement and skill is required. The later generation of trainers, whether nose draggers (k-21, g-103) or tail draggers (DG-500/1000, Duo) are designed to land main and tail at the same time - minimum energy landings - the equivalent of a 3- point landing in a taildragger airplane. This is also the way almost all current single seat gliders are designed to be landed, for obvious reasons - gliders are now heavier and land faster, and need to be landed at the slowest possible speed in an off-field landing. That is one of the reasons the 2-33 is a poor trainer for today's glider pilots (assuming they intend to move on to something more interesting than a 1-26). If all training is done in a 2-33 (or Blanik, to be fair), then a careful checkout in a modern glider is essential to properly prepare the transitioning pilot for the landing characteristics of most modern gliders. Just to keep this discussion interesting, we can now argue whether a low energy tailwheel-first landing is OK or bad for a modern glider (assuming a reasonable sink rate at touchdown)... Kirk |
#95
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Sep 18, 11:50*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Sep 18, 3:04*am, " wrote: A 2-33 should be landed just like any other "nose dragger glider" (G-103 II or ASK 21 etc) Really? *The correct landing procedure for a 2-33 (and Blanik) is a recipe for high energy landings in K-21s or G-103s (or worse case, a high sink rate bounced landing leading to the infamous "galloping Grob"!). *I hope you have a long runway and a big budget for brake pads! Some older gliders (and not all nose draggers) require a flown on landing - tail low, but on the main wheel - due to the tail wheel not being stressed for landing forces. *Examples are the 2-33 and Blanik (note, one is a nose dragger, one a tail dragger). *This is similar in concept to a wheel landing in a taildragger airplane - or a somewhat flat normal landing in a tricycle-geared airplane. *The trick is that once you have established the pitch attitude for touchdown, you can't continue to increase the angle of attack to slow down or you will touch the weak tail wheel/skid too early, so some judgement and skill is required. The later generation of trainers, whether nose draggers (k-21, g-103) or tail draggers (DG-500/1000, Duo) are designed to land main and tail at the same time - minimum energy landings - the equivalent of a 3- point landing in a taildragger airplane. *This is also the way almost all current single seat gliders are designed to be landed, for obvious reasons - gliders are now heavier and land faster, and need to be landed at the slowest possible speed in an off-field landing. That is one of the reasons the 2-33 is a poor trainer for today's glider pilots (assuming they intend to move on to something more interesting than a 1-26). *If all training is done in a 2-33 (or Blanik, to be fair), then a careful checkout in a modern glider is essential to properly prepare the transitioning pilot for the landing characteristics of most modern gliders. Just to keep this discussion interesting, we can now argue whether a low energy tailwheel-first landing is OK or bad for a modern glider (assuming a reasonable sink rate at touchdown)... Kirk Having flown a number of different gliders and power planes over the years, no two of them handle or land the same, different aircraft take different methods of landing, what works for a Cessna 150 may not do so well in a Bonanza, or what works in a 2-33 wont wor'k well in a Blanik,Lark,ASK21, etc. Thats why we have instructors to work us throught the transistion. Orvile and Willber were the only guys who had a valid reson to teach themselves to fly.. |
#96
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Sep 18, 11:50*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Sep 18, 3:04*am, " wrote: A 2-33 should be landed just like any other "nose dragger glider" (G-103 II or ASK 21 etc) Really? *The correct landing procedure for a 2-33 (and Blanik) is a recipe for high energy landings in K-21s or G-103s (or worse case, a high sink rate bounced landing leading to the infamous "galloping Grob"!). *I hope you have a long runway and a big budget for brake pads! Kirk Please explain further........how is the correct landing procedure for a 2-33 going to result in a high energy landing in a Grob? IMHO....the correct landing procedure for a 2-33 (low energy, slow speed, nose high, tail low, etc) will result in a similar low energy landing in a Grob..........this would be a short runway landing, with little or no need for brakes...... Cookie |
#97
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Sep 18, 11:50*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Sep 18, 3:04*am, " wrote: A 2-33 should be landed just like any other "nose dragger glider" (G-103 II or ASK 21 etc) Really? *The correct landing procedure for a 2-33 (and Blanik) is a recipe for high energy landings in K-21s or G-103s (or worse case, a high sink rate bounced landing leading to the infamous "galloping Grob"!). *I hope you have a long runway and a big budget for brake pads! Some older gliders (and not all nose draggers) require a flown on landing - tail low, but on the main wheel - due to the tail wheel not being stressed for landing forces. *Examples are the 2-33 and Blanik (note, one is a nose dragger, one a tail dragger). *This is similar in concept to a wheel landing in a taildragger airplane - or a somewhat flat normal landing in a tricycle-geared airplane. *The trick is that once you have established the pitch attitude for touchdown, you can't continue to increase the angle of attack to slow down or you will touch the weak tail wheel/skid too early, so some judgement and skill is required. The later generation of trainers, whether nose draggers (k-21, g-103) Suggested reading: Derek Piggot "Beginning Gliding" Chapter 4 Cookie or tail draggers (DG-500/1000, Duo) are designed to land main and tail at the same time - minimum energy landings - the equivalent of a 3- point landing in a taildragger airplane. *This is also the way almost all current single seat gliders are designed to be landed, for obvious reasons - gliders are now heavier and land faster, and need to be landed at the slowest possible speed in an off-field landing. That is one of the reasons the 2-33 is a poor trainer for today's glider pilots (assuming they intend to move on to something more interesting than a 1-26). *If all training is done in a 2-33 (or Blanik, to be fair), then a careful checkout in a modern glider is essential to properly prepare the transitioning pilot for the landing characteristics of most modern gliders. Just to keep this discussion interesting, we can now argue whether a low energy tailwheel-first landing is OK or bad for a modern glider (assuming a reasonable sink rate at touchdown)... Kirk |
#98
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Sep 18, 8:53*pm, ray conlon wrote:
On Sep 18, 11:50*am, "kirk.stant" wrote: On Sep 18, 3:04*am, " wrote: A 2-33 should be landed just like any other "nose dragger glider" (G-103 II or ASK 21 etc) Really? *The correct landing procedure for a 2-33 (and Blanik) is a recipe for high energy landings in K-21s or G-103s (or worse case, a high sink rate bounced landing leading to the infamous "galloping Grob"!). *I hope you have a long runway and a big budget for brake pads! Some older gliders (and not all nose draggers) require a flown on landing - tail low, but on the main wheel - due to the tail wheel not being stressed for landing forces. *Examples are the 2-33 and Blanik (note, one is a nose dragger, one a tail dragger). *This is similar in concept to a wheel landing in a taildragger airplane - or a somewhat flat normal landing in a tricycle-geared airplane. *The trick is that once you have established the pitch attitude for touchdown, you can't continue to increase the angle of attack to slow down or you will touch the weak tail wheel/skid too early, so some judgement and skill is required. The later generation of trainers, whether nose draggers (k-21, g-103) or tail draggers (DG-500/1000, Duo) are designed to land main and tail at the same time - minimum energy landings - the equivalent of a 3- point landing in a taildragger airplane. *This is also the way almost all current single seat gliders are designed to be landed, for obvious reasons - gliders are now heavier and land faster, and need to be landed at the slowest possible speed in an off-field landing. That is one of the reasons the 2-33 is a poor trainer for today's glider pilots (assuming they intend to move on to something more interesting than a 1-26). *If all training is done in a 2-33 (or Blanik, to be fair), then a careful checkout in a modern glider is essential to properly prepare the transitioning pilot for the landing characteristics of most modern gliders. Just to keep this discussion interesting, we can now argue whether a low energy tailwheel-first landing is OK or bad for a modern glider (assuming a reasonable sink rate at touchdown)... Kirk Having flown a number of different gliders and power planes over the years, no two of them handle or land the same, different aircraft take different methods of landing, what works for a Cessna 150 may not do so well in a Bonanza, or what works in a 2-33 wont wor'k *well in a Blanik,Lark,ASK21, etc. Thats why we have instructors to work us throught the transistion. Orvile and Willber were the only guys who had a valid reson to teach themselves to fly..- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - True, but the BASIC concept is the same........... Tell me of any nose dragger where the method is to jam the stick forward right at touch down as the guy did in the 2-33 / Grob story above......... Cookie |
#99
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Future Club Training Gliders
..
Just to keep this discussion interesting, we can now argue whether a low energy tailwheel-first landing is OK or bad for a modern glider (assuming a reasonable sink rate at touchdown)... Kirk Ok....I'll start.........on a tail dragger glider.... landing "ever so slightly" tail first touch down is a good thing..........if the approach is stable, and the sink rate is reasonable at touch down..........by touching the tail first, the main gear will come to the ground next, lowering the angle of attack on the wing, making it not likely for the glider to "bounce". Landing slightly tail first will also indicate that the glider is in the "low energy" state.....i.e. as slow as practical..(not as slow as possible, just as slow as practical) Landing slightly tail first should not put any undue stress on the airframe, tailwheel/skid etc, because the "weight" at the tail is very light..........the CG is far forward of the tail...........the glider will soon settle (softly) on the main gear, where the majority of the weight is taken by the robust structure / shock absorber etc there..... Note............this technique does not mean ....get close to the ground and jerk the stick back......this would cause the tail to slam into the ground with consideral impact......not good. Landing tail high in a taildragger glider is not a good thing........It indicates excess speed.......since the CG is behind the main gear, there is a tendancy of the tail to drop after main touch down, increasing the angle of attack, and possibly resulting in a "bounce". Yes, a "wheel type" landing can be done successfully in a taildragger glider, but in requires a slight stick forward pressure after touch down to prevent bouncing, (by lowering the angle of attack.....) and excessive speed, onger ground roll etc. Landing tail first in a nose dragger glider is not a good thing................. Landing tail first in a nose dragger will result in the main gear next touching down, but since the CG is in FRONT of this wheel, the tendancy is for the glider to continue to pitch forward (nose down) and contact the skid /nosewheel immediately..........as I mentioned earlier, the nose wheel or skid is not a "landing gear"...... IMHO......a nose dragger glider should be landed with "low energy" (slow airspeed), but not so slow that the tail touches first (too slow)......The nose skid/ wheel should be held off the ground during the ground taxi, as long as elevator authority allows......when the nose finally drops, the ground speed is very slow........ Same technique works for 2-33, 1-26, ASK-21, Grob 103...... This is far different from a "wheel type landing" and far different form "flying the glider on" Cookie |
#100
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Sep 18, 7:52*pm, "
wrote: On Sep 18, 11:50*am, "kirk.stant" wrote: On Sep 18, 3:04*am, " wrote: A 2-33 should be landed just like any other "nose dragger glider" (G-103 II or ASK 21 etc) Really? *The correct landing procedure for a 2-33 (and Blanik) is a recipe for high energy landings in K-21s or G-103s (or worse case, a high sink rate bounced landing leading to the infamous "galloping Grob"!). *I hope you have a long runway and a big budget for brake pads! Kirk Please explain further........how is the correct landing procedure for a 2-33 going to result in a high energy landing in a Grob? IMHO....the correct landing procedure for a 2-33 (low energy, slow speed, nose high, tail low, etc) will result in a similar low energy landing in a Grob..........this would be a short runway landing, with little or no need for brakes...... Cookie That is exactly correct. However, regardless of instructor efforts to prevent it, students will learn on their own a 2-33 stops really well with the skid on the runway and the more weight on the skid, the faster it stops. Trying to teach a student not to use this very useful trick is fruitless. This primary learning will transfer to a Grob and other gliders where it puts the new pilot at risk of a damaging accident. When a new pilot really, really needs to stop, it's going to be hard for him not to push the nose down. |
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