GAO Report: GA Security Threat

"Mark Hickey" wrote in message ...
"Felger Carbon" wrote:

wrote in message ...

If Saddam's commanders didn't believe there were chem/bio weapons in
theater,
why'd they bother with the 10's of thousands of chem/bio suits and
injectors?

Because Saddam figured his _enemies_ would use chem/bio??

Heh heh heh... that would be like a NFL linebacker bringing in a
baseball bat to beat up a four year old (for the second time). Do you
REALLY thing Saddam thought the US and UK would use WMD after all the
hoopla about how evil they are? That's a REAL reach...

Mark Hickey

I am sure that is what he wanted his people to think...

Sadam said that he was going to fight a non-conventional war with the US, and it sure looks like he meant what he
said...

"Tom S." wrote in message
...

"Montblack" wrote in message
...
("Robert Perkins" wrote)
They just didn't study it. History began with the formation of the
BRD, there was a 17 year gap, anything before that was like studying
pre-Civil War days in the U.S., that is to say, cursory.


We live in the "obscure president street names" area of town - Buchanan,
Van Buren, Pierce, Tyler, Quincy, Monroe, Polk, Fillmore, Taylor. The
nieces have lived around here for 17 years - they didn't know the
streets were named for Presidents.

Yes, Tyler is only two blocks over from Taylor. Can you say postal
confusion?

Yes, especially for Mr. Taylor, the tailor that has a shop over on Tyler.

Not to mention Mr. Tyler, the tiler that has a shop on Taylor.

Tim Ward

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 23:56:08 +0000, Del Rawlins wrote:

What I meant to say, is that I don't find it particularly credible for
Germany to be critical of another nation's decision to go to war.

I think it was Daniel Schorr who suggested not to overly criticize
Germany's current pacifism ...history has shown when they run into the
other direction they are hard to stop. Not a direct response to your
comment but I usually don't find much to say about moral lectures.


The whole point of this argument is that there *were* no other means
available to resolve the conflict in Iraq. Nothing short of force would
ever have brought Saddam down or motivated him to full disclosure on the
disposition of the WMD. The suggestion that the situation could have
been repaired otherwise is as ludicrous as the idea of negotiating for
peace with Hitler would have been in 1944.

This is an opinion. You can only assume what would have happened without
the war. BTW, this is called logic. Works without trying to find parallels
in history.

The other open (and never to be answered) question is whether it was
necessary to rid of Saddam in order to improve the security of the
American people (which was the only valid reason to justify the war,
before the nation and before the UN).

- Holger

"Holger Stephan" wrote:

The question is what do you want to achieve with this discussion. It is
well known to most here in the US that a large part of the world disagrees
with the US Iraq politics. In particular Germany and France.

One could look at the amount of business France, Russia and Germany
were doing with the Baath government in Iraq and reach a conclusion
that their objections had very little to do with anything but money.
Personally, I hope Saddam owed them all billions of dollars when he
went under.

It's kind of amusing that there are those who honestly feel that the
fact the US Vice President used to work for a military contractor who
got some business in reconstructing Iraq think that's significant, but
who can't imagine that France, Russia and Germany were influenced by
billions of dollars of commerce in their opposition to war. Go
figure...

Mark Hickey

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message |
| Do you recall the context?

It was a report from an analyst who is involved in looking for WMD.

Thank you. I'd be more trusting of a UN analyst looking for WMD, than
I would of a US analyst for obvous reasons.


It is credible to me because from the very beginning of the war military
authorities have been saying that captured personnel were "cooperating" in
the search for WMD. They probably did believe that other commanders had WMD.
Then the interrogation team would go to those commanders who would say, "No,
we had no WMD in our unit, but so-and-so had them."

Had I been captured, I would have cooperated too. If indeed Saddam
Hussein was bluffing it obviously backfired. But the simplest
explanation consistant with observed fact remains that the Declaration
in the Fall of 2002 was reasonably accurate.


They all believed that Iraq had WMD, but that these weapons were all
assigned to some other unit. Of course, all these commanders may not have
been lied to by Saddam, but they simply believed the photos and other stuff
presented by Colin Powell at the UN. Then we are left with the question of
why Saddam seems to have gone to such great lengths to appear to be hiding
WMD when in fact he had none.

Or maybe he really did have WMD, but had no chance to deploy them since they
were all hidden away in inaccessible places. They could have been buried
deep in the sand like the Iraqi Air Force, the location known only to a few,
and those few either dead or in hiding. In that event looking for WMD will
be a lot like looking for the Lost Dutchman mine, the object of treasure
hunters and book authors for centuries to come.

Unlike the lost Dutchman's treasure, WMDs rapidly deterioate to
uselessness. Only mustard gas is long lived and it WAS all
accounted for, save for a trivial amount (some 500 shells).
Any weapon stocks dating back to 1991 would be useless by now and
a liability.

--

FF

Fred the Red Shirt wrote:

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message |
| Do you recall the context?

It was a report from an analyst who is involved in looking for WMD.


Thank you. I'd be more trusting of a UN analyst looking for WMD, than
I would of a US analyst for obvous reasons.

The UN didn't stop saying that Saddam had WMD until Ignorance S. Blix
was unable to find anything (including an explanation for what had
happened to them) last year.

For that matter, they never said that he didn't have them, only that
they needed more time to find them.

Unlike the lost Dutchman's treasure, WMDs rapidly deterioate to
uselessness.

This will certainly come as news to all the people who are trying to
come up with safe ways to dispose of our leftover chemical weapons
stocks from decades back.

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 09:22:17 -0700, Mark Hickey wrote:

"Holger Stephan" wrote:

The question is what do you want to achieve with this discussion. It is
well known to most here in the US that a large part of the world
disagrees with the US Iraq politics. In particular Germany and France.

One could look at the amount of business France, Russia and Germany were
doing with the Baath government in Iraq and reach a conclusion that
their objections had very little to do with anything but money.
Personally, I hope Saddam owed them all billions of dollars when he went
under.

It's kind of amusing that there are those who honestly feel that the
fact the US Vice President used to work for a military contractor who
got some business in reconstructing Iraq think that's significant, but
who can't imagine that France, Russia and Germany were influenced by
billions of dollars of commerce in their opposition to war. Go
figure...

Mark Hickey

The opposition to the war in Iraq went far beyond just France and Germany.
The polls seem to indicate that the majority of the people in all European
countries were opposed to the war in Iraq.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2747175.stm
http://www.iht.com/articles/98398.html

Canada was quite divided, but the majority was against the war.

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030329.uchre0329/BNStory/National

The vast majority of Mexicans opposed the war.

http://www.iraqcrisisbulletin.com/archives/040403/html/mexican_anti-war_sentiment.html

--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
e-mail: khorton02(_at_)rogers(_dot_)com

Fred the Red Shirt wrote:

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
| "C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
| "Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
| ...
| |
| | I can't see much of a difference for the world with Saddam missing (he
| | isn't, really, by the way). I am now absolutely certain - as most news
| | watchers - that Saddam didn't pose nearly the threat that some were
led
| | to believe. There are no WMD, period.
| |
|
| Saddam's own military commanders all believed that Saddam had WMD. They
have
| told investigators that they still believe it.
|
| I'm only aware of one such person and he made claims about nuclear
| weapons which made it clear that he actually knew nothing about them.

Well, I heard it on NPR.

Do you recall the context? E.g. did the NPR speaking head say that or
did the NPR speaking head quote someone else as saying that, or
was someone else being interviewed who said that or did they play
statements from 'all' of Sadam Hussein's own military commanders?
Were ANY of the commanders mentioned by name?

I have speculated that the Iraqi military was so weakened by the
1991 war and ensuing sanctions that Saddam Hussein created the
impression that he was hiding WMDs as a bluff to forstall
military action against his regime from outside or within. But
I don't claim that to be anything but my own speculation.

Let's not forget that he only controlled about 2/3 of his own
country and his control over half of that was marginal.

His WMD were effective enough to stop the US for 12 years, until the UN
discovered they weren't there and that it was safe to attack.

John Halpenny wrote:


Fred the Red Shirt wrote:

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
e.com...
| "C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
| "Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
| ...
| |
| | I can't see much of a difference for the world with Saddam missing (he
| | isn't, really, by the way). I am now absolutely certain - as most news
| | watchers - that Saddam didn't pose nearly the threat that some were
led
| | to believe. There are no WMD, period.
| |
|
| Saddam's own military commanders all believed that Saddam had WMD. They
have
| told investigators that they still believe it.
|
| I'm only aware of one such person and he made claims about nuclear
| weapons which made it clear that he actually knew nothing about them.

Well, I heard it on NPR.

Do you recall the context? E.g. did the NPR speaking head say that or
did the NPR speaking head quote someone else as saying that, or
was someone else being interviewed who said that or did they play
statements from 'all' of Sadam Hussein's own military commanders?
Were ANY of the commanders mentioned by name?

I have speculated that the Iraqi military was so weakened by the
1991 war and ensuing sanctions that Saddam Hussein created the
impression that he was hiding WMDs as a bluff to forstall
military action against his regime from outside or within. But
I don't claim that to be anything but my own speculation.

Let's not forget that he only controlled about 2/3 of his own
country and his control over half of that was marginal.


His WMD were effective enough to stop the US for 12 years, until the UN
discovered they weren't there and that it was safe to attack.

And you are a moron.....

The following individuals apparently feel that this site is for their
personal bickering.

Below is some of the unwarranted garbage they have been whining about.
Personally I am tired of seeing it and sifting through it. There is no
relevance to this site, and I find it as compelling as tapeworm to have to
delete all this fluff and name-calling. Will you guys either quit or move to
a site where it would be welcome. Maybe you could meet at a bar, have a few
drinks and bash each other in person.
Bob
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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John Halpenny wrote:


Fred the Red Shirt wrote:

"C J Campbell" wrote

| "Thomas Borchert" wrote in message

| I can't see much of a difference for the world with Saddam
missing................ (

There are no WMD, period....................
| |
|
Well, I heard it on NPR........................

Do you recall the context? ..................

I have speculated that the Iraqi military ...........

I don't claim that to be anything but my own
speculation..................

And you are a moron........................