Bible-beater pilots

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 03:21:26 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:



Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?

Run like hell? Seriously.
I'm a Christian, but don't walk through life looking for souls to,
in but a moment, 'save.' And I have difficulty with those who would
want to so quickly take authority over mine and claim a personal
victory; in the name of righteousness (which I do respect). Their
pushiness takes on a predatory nature I would want to stay away from,
of course. Preachers to the soul have much to prove if they expect
(_tactically demand_) to have that kind of influence on me!
As for wanting to run, I am the emotional type, but also not the
wordy type. So a casual change in conversation (getting a proper
'grip,' as written in previous replies) is not likely with me either.
I would probably just say nothing, letting the conversation trail off
uncomfortably until they changed the subject or left, or I got the
courage and just left on my own.
As for my salvation, it is not in doubt with me, but they always
seem to want to take it from me with their preferred method. I'm
nearly always convinced from the start it is they who need help (and
are in no ways open to it); having bared fangs long enough to bite and
not let go. Consider the conversation as lost, then play dead till
someone leaves. That's my advice.

Mike,

There are other approaches under different circumstances, and previous
posters indicated they wanted to leave those options open. I agree,
but this post hit a nerve. If the conversational tactics are
pressured, abnormal, then make it hurt for them also. They need to
learn a lesson or two.

Jay,

Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?


Stand up for YOUR beliefs - or non-beliefs. It's the only way. If they
have the freedom to have their view - and they should - then it is your
right to have your own. Try to end the discussion by allowing that
people have different opinions about this, yours differs from theirs,
and you'd rather discuss something else.

That's one way. The other, of course, is trying to convince them. Just
like a good newsgroup discussion. Good luck! ;-)

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Thomas Borchert wrote:

Jay,


Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?



Stand up for YOUR beliefs - or non-beliefs. It's the only way. If they
have the freedom to have their view - and they should - then it is your
right to have your own. Try to end the discussion by allowing that
people have different opinions about this, yours differs from theirs,
and you'd rather discuss something else.

Tell them that when they actually get a religion and not the cult they
are really in you'll discuss it with them.

At this point I think the issue is less of "witnessing" or
prostelyzing (sp? can't find it in my dictionary) and more an
issue for Miss Manners. I was brought up *never* to discuss
religion with strangers. I consider people who want to foster
their ideas and beliefs upon me to be rude and ill-mannered. Jay
was being more than gracious by being polite and considerate.
The lunch companions were being rude when Jay made it clear
that he was uncomfortable with the topics.

Of course there are times when it's perfectly permissable to
just say "You are ruining my delightful day with my wife, and
ruining my lunch" then go to another table.

Blanche Cohen wrote:
At this point I think the issue is less of "witnessing" or
prostelyzing (sp? can't find it in my dictionary)

Proselytise.

While we're on the topic of spelling : Jay, it's Prairie du Chien (not
Chein).

While we're on the topic of spelling : Jay, it's Prairie du Chien (not
Chein).

Thanks. I tend to spell it interchangeably, since my chell specker doesn't
recognize it!

I prefer to refer to it as "PDC".
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:

Thanks. I tend to spell it interchangeably, since my chell specker doesn't
recognize it!

I prefer to refer to it as "PDC".

Come over here : we'll do some flying and you'll learn some french.

Blanche Cohen wrote:

At this point I think the issue is less of "witnessing" or
prostelyzing (sp? can't find it in my dictionary) and more an
issue for Miss Manners. I was brought up *never* to discuss
religion with strangers.

Yep. That and politics.

George Patterson
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something that can
be learned no other way.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:Wwfvb.262377$Fm2.278122@attbi_s04...
Yesterday was clear, in the 60s (in November in Iowa!), and -- best of
all -- our day off. With the kids in school, and the plane fully fueled,
it
was off to...where?

Prairie du Chein, sitting at the confluence of the Mississippi and
Wisconsin
Rivers, beckoned, with its beautiful approaches, favorable runways, and a
riverboat casino that would fetch us over to their excellent lunch buffet.
So, we pointed Atlas in that general direction, and puttered our way to
Wisconsin at a paltry 109 knots -- we were bucking a 35 knot headwind all
the way!

Luckily, above 3500 feet it was smooth as a baby's bottom. Calling PDC
from
10 minutes out, we asked them to call the casino's courtesy vehicle for
us.
To our surprise, they announced that it was "already on the way" --
apparently someone was there ahead of us, and had already made the call.

After a beautiful (if bumpy) approach (thanks to the wind hitting the huge
bluffs that line the river by PDC) I taxied up to the terminal, and parked
next to a gorgeous blood-red Mooney. It was immaculate, and the paint
really set it apart. Upon strolling inside, we discovered two older
gentlemen, one of whom owned the Mooney -- evidently the folks who had
called the casino. The courtesy van was already there, so we hopped in
the
back and all rode over together.

The usual introductions were made, and standard pilot talk ensued. It
turned out that the Mooney was a '67 model, and both guys were retired and
in their mid-70s. One had been a Sears store manager for many years, and
the other -- the owner of the Mooney -- was a successful real estate
developer. The conversation flowed smoothly, and the ride went quickly.
As
we disembarked from the van, we bid them adieu and went our separate ways.

In the buffet line, we ran into them again. While I was filling my salad
bowl, the old Sears manager asked me if we cared to join them for lunch?
Since we were sans kids, and they were mighty nice company, Mary and I
allowed that joining them was a grand idea, and proceeded to confuse the
wait staff by moving our beverages across the room to their table.

Once we were all seated with our food, the real estate guy announced that
it
was their habit to pray before meals, and asked if we might join them. I
frankly found this a bit odd, in a casino buffet, but to be polite we
affirmed the idea and bowed our heads while the Sears guy recited a prayer
about safe flying and good eating. Mary and I exchanged the old "uh-oh"
glance, but we still hoped that things would progress normally.

It was not to be.

As lunch proceeded, we began discussing Iowa City, and how terrific the
school system was, and they guided the conversation uncomfortably into
what
church we attended with our kids. Mary struggled bravely to answer that
question in a way that wouldn't offend these obviously religious men, but
there was simply no way to hide the fact that we didn't take them to ANY
church. I then proceeded to explain that we had both been raised
hyper-Catholic, and had been bludgeoned to death with our heavy-handed
religious upbringings. We were going to let our children decide their
religion when they reached the age of reason.

This was a mistake. I might as well have tossed blood into shark-infested
waters.

The next question, after a pause, was from the Sears guy, asking whether
we
had Gideon bibles in our hotel suites. I chuckled, and allowed that we
did.
I then went on to say how we'd even seen some competition amongst the
various religious sects in town, with the Mormons trying to get us to put
their "Book of Mormon" texts in all the suites, too. Still chuckling, I
remarked that we had to draw the line somewhere, or we'd have to put the
Koran and the Hindu texts in the suites, too.

This was another mistake. The Sears guy turned out to be a Gideon, and he
didn't warm to the notion that I was equating his King James Bible with
the
Koran.

Soon, both men were quoting scripture to us, chapter and verse, "proving"
how "easy" it was to be "saved" by the "true Lord, Jesus", as opposed to
the
heathen gods of the other religions. By now we were both growing
incredibly uncomfortable, and I had that horrible "this must be a
nightmare"
feeling rising in the pit of my stomach. Not knowing whether to bolt or
tell them to f*ck off, I just sat there silently, dumbly smiling at them
in
disbelief.

Then the Sears guy asked me if I knew how "truly easy" it was to be
"saved"?
I replied, quite honestly, "no". (ANOTHER mistake!) He then told me that
I
didn't have to close my eyes, nor did I even have to be in church -- I
only
had to say the following prayer along with him, giving myself over to
Jesus
Christ. He then asked, directly, "Would I be willing to say this little
prayer aloud with him?"

The heat in my face was really rising now, and I felt like everyone in
that
casino was staring DIRECTLY at the back of my head. What could I say to
someone so earnest, yet so incredibly rude? I smiled, placed my hand
firmly
on his shoulder, and told him that I most certainly was NOT going to pray
with him in a casino. I then went back to eating, trying to think of
some
way -- ANY way -- to escape this insane situation.

Mary finally came up with the answer -- she bolted, and went to the
bathroom! Abandoned, I was a helpless target for their religious zeal,
and
felt myself being carried along by their verbal diarrhea. There was
simply
no escape, and I politely listened while they explained to me everything
from everlasting salvation, to the tax advantages of tithing 20% of my
income to the church...

At last Mary returned, and announced that we were late to get back to pick
up the kids from school. Never had I been so grateful for bad news in my
life, and I quickly jumped up, shook both their hands, thanked them for an
"interesting" lunch, and headed toward the door, on the double.

Feeling like I'd just been delivered from the Gates of Hell, we told the
driver (the same guy who had picked us up) about the two bible-beater
pilots. He was as dumb-founded as we were, and apologized profusely, as
if
he had just forced us to eat lunch with a couple of sloppy drunks. He
allowed that their kind was exceedingly rare at the casino -- an
observation
that made us laugh out loud.

We then warned him to keep his mouth shut when he gave them a ride back,
or
risk wasting the entire afternoon, which got him chuckling -- until his
radio crackled to life, and the dispatcher announced that he had "Two more
to go back to the airport" when he got back.

His face fell as he knew that deliverance would not be his today... Then
it
was *our* turn to laugh!

Our flight home was fast (175 knots, thanks to that tail wind) and
uneventful, but our lunch had been completely ruined, and we could only
shake our heads in wonder at the audacity of these men. The gall and
sheer
tastelessness of their behavior had us recounting every detail of the
experience all the way home, as if we had just witnessed a train wreck.
We
realized (with a shudder) that these men were only one or two steps
removed
from the Islamo-Fascists we are currently fighting in the Middle East, the
only difference being their hair style and their dogma.

Until yesterday I had run into religious fanatics and cult followers in
every walk of life EXCEPT aviation. I guess I had assumed that anyone
smart
enough to get their pilot's certificate couldn't be so gullible -- and
rude -- as to go around trying to "save" perfect strangers. I still have
a
hard time believing that it wasn't some sort of a "Candid Camera" set up,
but I'm afraid they really, honestly thought they were doing the right
thing.

Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

To be perfectly honest with you Jay, most of my colleagues and myself
are/were under the impression that most Americans are very religious, you
know God bless America and all that stuff, where it is the opposite in
Australia. In saying that, it surprises me that you aren't. I am not
religious myself.

When I find myself in a situation such as yours Jay, I cannot help but to
"debate" if you like, the existance of God and the hipocracy of the various
churches around the world. I don't let it become personal or childish but it
invariably ends in the religious person having no answer but the old
"Because it is Gods way/wish" or what ever. But that's just me Jay, there
are times when I'll be straight to the point and say I'm not interested
thank you, and adopt the speak to the hand pose. I think they should be
treated like telemarketers. Keep it short and straight to the point, but
give it to them right back, it's your free time and if your like me, they
don't come very often, don't let it be spoiled by misdirected people. If
they stop talking and the silence is awkward, let them know that you won't
be offended if they move to another table.

Scet

To be perfectly honest with you Jay, most of my colleagues and myself
are/were under the impression that most Americans are very religious, you
know God bless America and all that stuff, where it is the opposite in
Australia. In saying that, it surprises me that you aren't. I am not
religious myself.

Actually, it was just reported (on NPR) the other day that Americans are the
most religious people in the world. (I think they measured that by asking
"How often you go to church?" -- as if THAT has anything to do with
religion.) So I suppose I should be thankful that I haven't run into this
situation before.

When I find myself in a situation such as yours Jay, I cannot help but to
"debate" if you like, the existance of God

If I'm sitting around a camp fire, I'm the same way. I'll debate religion
until I run out of breath.

I think it was the utter "out of left field" nature of these guys that
caught us both off guard. We were feeling really good about ourselves, and
the day, and the flight, and all the sudden *wham!* -- we found ourselves
knee-deep in a religious debate neither of us expected.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"


and the hipocracy of the various
churches around the world. I don't let it become personal or childish but
it
invariably ends in the religious person having no answer but the old
"Because it is Gods way/wish" or what ever. But that's just me Jay, there
are times when I'll be straight to the point and say I'm not interested
thank you, and adopt the speak to the hand pose. I think they should be
treated like telemarketers. Keep it short and straight to the point, but
give it to them right back, it's your free time and if your like me, they
don't come very often, don't let it be spoiled by misdirected people. If
they stop talking and the silence is awkward, let them know that you won't
be offended if they move to another table.

Scet