Almost saw someone crash

On Mon, 24 May 2004 16:21:20 -0500, "Dan Luke"
wrote:

wrote:
There weren't that many German night fighters so if the
entire bomber swarm passed through the sector together,
the night fighter would not get an opportunity to attack
multiple targets. They basically took off, headed for an
assembly point and turned for the
target when they reached it.

You sure about that? I thought the Brit bombers attacked in a "bomber
stream" rather than any kind of group formation.
--
Dan

Please read what I said again Dan. I'm not claiming that they flew a
formation, what I said was that they took off and headed for an
assembly point, then turned for the target. The bombers all had to
head for the assembly point so that the swarm/stream could get into
the same flight path. If they did not do this, the bomber stream
would be greatly dispersed.

Perhaps assembly point is a poor term, use "initial point" or "turn
in" point instead and perhaps you'll see what I mean. They did not
actually "assemble" at the turning point, they just used it as a
navigation aid to locate where they were and turn to the target
heading, or the initial navigation point towards their target. Each
bomber did this individually and flew individually climbing as they
left their airfield.

So they weren't forming a formation, not in the sense of the US
daylight bombing, they were just arriving at this point and turning to
the target. From then on until they had the target in sight, each
individual bomber was responsible for it's own navigation. They often
could see other bombers in decent weather, and obviously could also
see each other being shot down.

During the bombing raid on Nuremburg in 1944, the weather was crystal
clear above a low cloud layer and the moon was bright. The bombers
stuck out like they were flying during the day. The Germans happened
to have numerous fighters orbiting several radio beacons directly in
the line of flight and once they released the fighters to engage, the
German pilots had little trouble finding targets. So bright was the
night that the Wild Sau (undirected single seat fighters, as opposed
to twin engine radar guided night fighters) figured prominantly in the
nights activities. Nearly 100 bombers were shot down.

Corky Scott

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"Capt.Doug" wrote in message
...
It's not neccessarily about doing her a favor. If someone called the FAA
safety hotline, what would happen? Do you think there is enough of a
case
for a successful prosecution? I doubt it. All that would likely happen
is
that her attitude would become more cavalier because she beat the Feds
at
their game.

That's baloney. First of all, from the description given, there were
plenty
of witnesses to make a case, plus there's going to be a record of the
damage
to the plane. Secondly, so what if this particular case isn't the one
that
gets her? Unless people are willing to report irresponsible piloting like
that, the FSDO never has a chance to even start building a case.

As for her attitude becoming "more cavalier", I can't imagine how it could
be any more cavalier than it already is. Just how much worse could she
possibly get? She's already nearly killed herself, running the plane into
something in flight. Any more cavalier, and she won't be a problem
because
she WILL be dead.

Pete


Then again we have only heard one side of the story. Sure would be
interesting to hear the other side. It's funny how things change once both
sides have their chance to speak..

Cub Driver wrote:

In THE FOG OF WAR, Robert McNamara talks about

This video has been recommended to me. Is it worth seeing? (I'm not
interested in a Michael Moore screed. I get all that stuff I can stand
on the local cocktail party circuit.)

Yes, THE FOG OF WAR is the kind of documentary that *should* have won a
Palme d'Or. Try to see it in a theatre if you can -- I was trembling when I
walked out, and I'm not easily moved or impressed by documentaries.


All the best,


David

"David Megginson" wrote in message
. rogers.com...
I read somewhere about bomber squadrons forming up in low vis before a
raid.
Often the crews wouldn't see the conflicting plane, but they'd feel the
wake turbulence and then realized that they'd survived another near miss.

Time Team (programme on TV here in the UK) had an archeological
dig of a site where two B17s collided in cloud...or rather of where they
ended up in the ground.

http://www.channel4.com/history/time...e/reedham.html

Paul

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
As for her attitude becoming "more cavalier", I can't imagine how it could
be any more cavalier than it already is. Just how much worse could she
possibly get? She's already nearly killed herself, running the plane into
something in flight. Any more cavalier, and she won't be a problem
because
she WILL be dead.

Well, she did recogise that she should get on the ground ASAP
and landed when and where she did.

Paul

"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
...
[...]
What I don't understand is why some one would be frustrated seeing
some one else doing something foolish.

Every day I see people not eating right, eating too much, and not
exercising which is probably just as dangerous as scud running and I'm
not condoning either one.

The difference being that they are much less likely to kill someone else
while engaging in those dangerous activities, and they won't be used against
the rest of us pilots to "prove" to the public that flying is too dangerous
to be allowed to happen without even more regulation.

Pete

"Paul Sengupta" wrote in message
...
"David Megginson" wrote in message
. rogers.com...
I read somewhere about bomber squadrons forming up in low vis before a
raid.
Often the crews wouldn't see the conflicting plane, but they'd feel
the
wake turbulence and then realized that they'd survived another near
miss.

Time Team (programme on TV here in the UK) had an archeological
dig of a site where two B17s collided in cloud...or rather of where they
ended up in the ground.

http://www.channel4.com/history/time...e/reedham.html

Paul



Paul,

Can't immeadiately recall if it's our Discovery Channel or History Channel
but that series is being re-packaged/re-aired over on this side of the pond.

I saw that particular episode ... very good stuff.

Jay B

In article , Paul Sengupta wrote:
Time Team (programme on TV here in the UK) had an archeological
dig of a site where two B17s collided in cloud...or rather of where they
ended up in the ground.

A B-17 collided with the Isle of Man during the war. They were cruising
at about 1200' MSL over the Irish Sea, and someone forgot about the big
rock in the middle and they slammed into the side of North Barrule.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

Do you know the difference between a A36 and a V35?


Yes. Do you know the difference between a V35 and an ultralight?



Does he?


You'd have to ask him.

I would argue the point that an individual who flies VFR in IMC is a
skillful pilot. Most pilots would suggest that flying in IMC and being lost
in a thunderstorm do not demonstrate good judgment or skill.

She stated that it was so difficult to control the plane that she couldn't
take her hands off the yoke to hit the "nearest" button on her GPS to find
the closest airport. I do not think this demonstrates a high level of
proficiency or judgment.

I spoke with our mechanic today- the plane had tree bark and leaves embedded
in the wingtip and leading edge. This to me would suggest that at some point
in time she had hit a tree.

These are the facts of the post- if you do not believe that these events
brought this individual close to killing herself so be it.