Class D Sucks

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...


The controller get his information from the pilots. Pilots are frequently
not where they THINK they are and provide bad information to the
controller.


Guilty as charged.
Long ago I was inbound to Dallas Redbird from the Surry VOR. I mixed my
position report with direction of flight. The controller was quick to see my
mistake and asked my position again, prompting me to realize it.
My original report would have placed me in the heart of DFWs hornets nest.
:-0

Marty

Congestion on the approach frequency is at the heart of the problem.
Often it is impossible to ask for a clarification - and sometimes near
impossible to get approach's attention at all. One time I wanted to
transition a Class C, and had to listen to a long-winded conversation
between the controller and a pilot. Since they wouldn't shut up long
enough for me to "get a word in edgewise", I had to deliberately
transmit on top of the other pilot to get the controller's attention.

The best solution, if you can, is to avoid those places altogether.
Most destinations have uncontrolled airports nearby, and I, for one,
will always choose to use them - unless there is some pressing
reason to use the towered airport. I used to be based at a Class C,
but chose to move to an uncontrolled airport twice as far from where
I lived - because I got sick and tired of the hassle.

David Johnson

I started flying at RHV and everyone avoided SJC Carlie like the
plague. Then out of Oakland (North Field). And now HWD. I like HWD
because I am still "in the mix" of busy airspace and get lots of "real
world" traffic and communications chalenges, but if I don't want to do
the transition I can still get out and stay clear of Charlie and/or
Bravo and only have to chat with HWD tower. I still fly into OAK some
times for pattern work.

IMHO pilots should take the time to use the airspace avalable to its
fullest, particularly with all of the communications issues that seem
to be out there. If someone finds that they avoid airspace because
they get frustrated with ATC or are scared of the "jungle" thats where
they should spend some time to get over it and hone the skills of
proper communication.

I have found that the more proffesional and confident you sound the
faster you will get in and out of the airspace. A CFI once told me
that controllers are aware that they don't always make sence. The only
feedback they get about a particular phrasiology being ineffective is
clarifacation requests. If we dont ask they assume it made sence.
Oddly enough the NTSB sides with ATC on that.
After all, we are PIC, Right?

Another thing I have noticed, particularly with Bravo and Charlie,
accuracy in position reporting and quick "traffic in sight" replies or
unsolicited "traffic in sight" updates get you priority handling as
well. If they think you know where you are and whose around you, they
dont need as much "clear air" to keep anything from bending.

Jon Wanzer
CP ASEL / IA
AGI IGI (CFI / CFII soon-to-be)
San Jose,CA

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:21:59 -0800, john szpara
wrote:

Hayward (weird) *is* a strange place to fly into. The ILS for 29 is 1
mile to the left, and the ILS for 27 is 2.5 miles to the right.
Oakland is basically two airports. It has class C airspace, which
starts barely a 1/2 mile off the end of HWD's runways.

SFO's class B airspace lays above. SJC's class C starts 10 miles
south. Flying anywhere in this area is like an obstacle course.

As for the "modified straight in", I didn't give any thought to it at
the time. I was given no other instructions, point to fly to, or
traffic to follow, so I flew a route at my discretion.
John Szpara

Newbie almost student pilot here (IE still saving for lessons and playing
with MS Flight Sim):

bit off topic, can you recommend reading material that describes ATC
communications. What's I've heard so far sounds totally Greek to me. I can
make sure since out of a square dance call.

"Jon Wanzer" wrote in message
...
I started flying at RHV and everyone avoided SJC Carlie like the
plague. Then out of Oakland (North Field). And now HWD. I like HWD
because I am still "in the mix" of busy airspace and get lots of "real
world" traffic and communications chalenges, but if I don't want to do
the transition I can still get out and stay clear of Charlie and/or
Bravo and only have to chat with HWD tower. I still fly into OAK some
times for pattern work.

IMHO pilots should take the time to use the airspace avalable to its
fullest, particularly with all of the communications issues that seem
to be out there. If someone finds that they avoid airspace because
they get frustrated with ATC or are scared of the "jungle" thats where
they should spend some time to get over it and hone the skills of
proper communication.

I have found that the more proffesional and confident you sound the
faster you will get in and out of the airspace. A CFI once told me
that controllers are aware that they don't always make sence. The only
feedback they get about a particular phrasiology being ineffective is
clarifacation requests. If we dont ask they assume it made sence.
Oddly enough the NTSB sides with ATC on that.
After all, we are PIC, Right?

Another thing I have noticed, particularly with Bravo and Charlie,
accuracy in position reporting and quick "traffic in sight" replies or
unsolicited "traffic in sight" updates get you priority handling as
well. If they think you know where you are and whose around you, they
dont need as much "clear air" to keep anything from bending.

Jon Wanzer
CP ASEL / IA
AGI IGI (CFI / CFII soon-to-be)
San Jose,CA

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:21:59 -0800, john szpara
wrote:

Hayward (weird) *is* a strange place to fly into. The ILS for 29 is 1
mile to the left, and the ILS for 27 is 2.5 miles to the right.
Oakland is basically two airports. It has class C airspace, which
starts barely a 1/2 mile off the end of HWD's runways.

SFO's class B airspace lays above. SJC's class C starts 10 miles
south. Flying anywhere in this area is like an obstacle course.

As for the "modified straight in", I didn't give any thought to it at
the time. I was given no other instructions, point to fly to, or
traffic to follow, so I flew a route at my discretion.
John Szpara

I can make sure since out of a square dance call.

Talk about "speaking in tongues" -- what the heck does *that* mean?

You're gonna fit right in the mix with ATC, talking like that!

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Hmmm, fingers not typing what I'm thinking, "I can make more since out of a
square dance call"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:0vYzd.644956$D%.308656@attbi_s51...
I can make sure since out of a square dance call.

Talk about "speaking in tongues" -- what the heck does *that* mean?

You're gonna fit right in the mix with ATC, talking like that!

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Hmmm, fingers not typing what I'm thinking, "I can make more since out of a
square dance call"

Still doesn't parse in English, but it gives me enough of a clue. I
think you meant "I can make more =sense= out of a square dance call".

November Three Juliet Bravo, fly heading 120, do-si-do the outer
marker until intercepting the localizer. Maintain 3000, lady's chain
then promenade. Report airport in sight.

It's that apple cider, I'm sure.

Jose
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

November Three Juliet Bravo, fly heading 120, do-si-do the outer marker
until intercepting the localizer. Maintain 3000, lady's chain then
promenade. Report airport in sight.

Egg nog out the nose is painful!

Thanks, Jose!

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Ha, you got it (silly spell checker, it should know what I mean).

So are there good reference material to learn that, I'm thinking I'm going
to have enough fun watching my air speed, rate of descent, keeping on the
center line, slipping and crabbing, etc. And I'm going to choke when I hear
the ATC going on like that. I'd like to get a head start on knowing what to
expect and what it means.


"Jose" wrote in message
m...
Hmmm, fingers not typing what I'm thinking, "I can make more since out
of a
square dance call"

Still doesn't parse in English, but it gives me enough of a clue. I
think you meant "I can make more =sense= out of a square dance call".

November Three Juliet Bravo, fly heading 120, do-si-do the outer
marker until intercepting the localizer. Maintain 3000, lady's chain
then promenade. Report airport in sight.

It's that apple cider, I'm sure.

Jose
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

So are there good reference material to learn [ATCspeak], I'm thinking I'm going
to have enough fun watching my air speed, rate of descent, keeping on the
center line, slipping and crabbing, etc. And I'm going to choke when I hear
the ATC going on like that. I'd like to get a head start on knowing what to
expect and what it means.

As a student pilot there's a lot you won't have to worry about (IFR
clearances, vectors and altitude assignments, stuff like that) and the
stuff you do need you'll get to gradually (flight following for
example does involve vectors and altitudes). One of the best things
you can do is to take a tape recorder out to the field and record a
few hours (or have a friend record a few hours) of the chatter on the
control tower frequency (I assume you'll be training at a tower
airport, since you're posting in the Class D thread) and the ground
frequency. Listen to ground tower first. Aircraft contact the tower
inbound asking for landing clearance, and outbound when they reach the
runway and are ready to take off. You'll hear "left traffic", "right
traffic", "straight in", "right base"... over and over. They refer to
the path an airplane flies when ready to land (essentially it flies
parallel to the runway and makes a u-turn - left traffic means make
the turns to the left... etc).

Then listen to ground for a while. Most of the chatter there concerns
getting to the runway (which taxiways to take, sometimes which runways
to use). They use the phonetic alphabet (ABC... is Alpha Bravo
Charlie...) to name taxiways and such; you'll get used to it. You'll
also hear IFR clerances. Don't worry about them for now. ("Victor
Tango Charlie is cleared to Santa Rosa via radar vectors to Awnie,
Victor 12, Victor 3, Madison, direct. Maintain three thousand, expect
five in ten...")

Listen to the ATIS for a bit too. That's easy, it keeps repeating.
It's just weather and runway in use, mostly.

Once you take your first or second lesson, so much more will be clear
because you'll actually be =doing= stuff and you'll have an instructor
to ask questions of.

There are books and such about good ATC communications; and the AIM is
an essential handbook for pilots anyway (it has a chapter on it). I
don't have any reccomendations (so why am I posting?) on specific
books; see what your library has, drop in on the flight school and
thumb through some of their books.

You'll learn to understand the stuff quickly enough, don't let it
intimidate you. Anybody who does square dancing can do ATC. The hard
part is when transmitting, to know what to say before you key the
mike. ("Danbury tower, Piper three four seven Alpha Charlie, eight
miles northeast, inbound for landing with Whiskey", rather than
"Danbury tower, uh, let's see, we're a Piper, yeah... we're
landing.... um... oh, it's three four seven Charlie... I mean three
four seven Alpha Charlie... we're to the south... No, we're heading
south - we're north by a lake, well, we just passed the lake, most of
it anyway. We're at 2000 feet, our heading is two five zero... um,
what's the weather. And we're landing. Is that ok?"

That's just practice. But practice the first method, not the second
one.

Jose
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.