Todays Cost of getting a PPL

On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 08:36:14 +0100, Mxsmanic wrote the following in
skywriting:

Crash Lander writes:

No it's not. It's a hobby for people who know how to manage the money they
have.

If you don't have thousands of dollars to spare, no amount of
management will allow you to fly.

I'm married, with 2 kids. We have only 1 income, which is by no means large.
I pay rent, have personal load and credit card debt, and no, repeat NO
savings what-soever, yet I am still able to fly.

Show me the numbers.

It's all about budgeting what resources you do have, and as long as you are
prepared to for-go a lesson should something urgent come up that demands the
funds be spent on it, anyone can do it.

Show me the numbers. Vague statements are not persuasive.

If you're suggesting I disclose my yearly income, and the extent of my debt
and repayments, that's hardly appropriate, but any financial advisor will
be able to show you how to budget.
You earn x amount each week. You have to pay a amount on rent, b amount on
bills, c amount of groceries, d amount on petrol etc. If all of those
things add up to less than x, then you have the potential to learn to fly.
How much you spend on shopping etc is up to you. I don't know anyone who
can't cut their shopping bill back a few dollars each week when needed.
For example. We normally spend $300 each fortnight on groceries. This feeds
the 4 of us, and even allows things like ice cream for the kids, and snacks
like museli bars etc. When my car rego came in ($475) and then a few days
later, my electricity bill came in ($450), instantly, I knew I needed to
make some savings somewhere. That week, we only bopught what we absolutely
needed to get us through the tight patch, and that fortnight, our shopping
was $200. Sure, there were a lot more generic brand items in the trolley,
but we got by, and the bills got paid.
Now go and apply that to allow yourself even $20 per week, and a month,
you'll have enough for a lesson! Do that for 6 months, and you'll be able
to start learning with say 1 lesson a fortnight, whilst still saving that
$20 each week.
If you smoke, quit! That will save a mint! If you drink, dont! That will
save a mint. If you chew gum, don't! What's gum worth? $1 a pack? 10 packs
a week? That's $10 without even trying!
I've proven I can do it. Now prove to me that you can! Force everyone in
this newsgroup to have some respect for you, and do it.
--
Oz Lander
I'm not always right, But I'm never wrong.

On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 08:38:33 +0100, Mxsmanic wrote the following in
skywriting:

Right now I have about eight euro, total.

Do you have a regular income? Do you live alone or at home? Cell phone? All
these things make a difference. I don't live in France, and don't know the
costs of living etc, but I'd be happy to take a confidential lookat your
current budget system, turn it upside down, turn it all around and give it
back to you in better shape than what it started in, but the trick with all
budgeting is the commitment to sticking to it no matter what. It won't work
without commitment.
Sure, some people canb't be helped, but not very many, and I'd suggest if
you can afford internet access, there is room to move. If your debts are
all over the place, you may need to consolidate to bring repayments down.
I've gone off on a tangent now, but I'm sure you get what I'm getting at.
--
Oz Lander
I'm not always right, But I'm never wrong.

On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 08:45:04 +0100, Mxsmanic wrote the following in
skywriting:


You make financial decisions every day. Do I buy the brand name ice cream,
or the generic brand ice cream.

It's more like "do I pay the rent, or the electric bill?"

I have weeks like that too. Obviously I pay the rent. The electricity
company will be fine if I ring them and say it'll be a week late. They will
even help you with payment plans and shorter billing cycles. You can even
just pay $10 a week on your electricity bill even when you don't owe them
anything. That way, when a bill comes, you're in credit or only have to pay
a small amount, and because you've spread the payments out over the weeks,
you never even noticed it.

For me? I'd gladly sacrifice ice cream and all the other little un-necessary
luxuries we take for granted if it will give me another hour in the sky.

Will you sacrifice necessities as well?

It depends what you class as necessities. As a general rule, no. I will
however buy the very cheapest option of those necessities if I have to. Why
buy Sunicrust Bakery bread when the supermarket bakery brand that's $1 a
loaf cheaper will still fill my belly just as well. Sure, it may not taste
quite as nice, but when I need some money for something, and I use 10
loaves of bread a fortnight, I have to.


What about the computer system you run it on?

I don't own the computer I use.

Fair enough.

It's all about priorities and managing what you have.

Sometimes it's about not having anything.

That depends what your priorities are. You don't have _nothing_. You
obviously get enough to eat, otherwise you'd be in hospital suffering from
malnutrition, rather than posting here. You may _think_ you have nothing
compared to what some other people might have. Don't worry about other
people. Just worry about yourself, and stop feeling sorry and depressed for
yourself.

--
Oz Lander
I'm not always right, But I'm never wrong.

Mxsmanic wrote:
It's more like "do I pay the rent, or the electric bill?"

although in France you have the option of paying neither: your
landlord won't be able to kick you out if you stop paying rent
(they cannot by law do so in winter, and it's pretty darn
difficult the rest of the year -- you can drag on the process
from winter to winter pretty safely -- it can take years to kick
out a non paying renter -- and large legal bills that most
landlords can't afford) and EDF --- the state run electricity
company -- won't be allowed to cut your electricity supply either
even if you don't pay. And you might very well qualify for RMI
-- it's French for free money/lunch.

Here you go, we solved you budget problem; where is the closest
airport?

--Sylvain

Mxsmanic wrote:
B A R R Y writes:

You bring your own to the airport.

How do you find a female pilot to begin with?

She doesn't NEED to be a pilot! G

One doesn't offer motorcycle or custom car rides only to women who also
own custom cars or motorcycles. Kabeesh?

If you can be bothered to look..

http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/a...atistics/2005/

Paul

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Jim Logajan writes:

Did you just make up your "one in a thousand" number? Where did you get
that number?

I speculated. So, what's the real number?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

unicate wrote:
"Jay Honeck" wrote:
There are plenty of flight schools that will rent you a 152 for $70/hr
wet, and lots of CFIs that still work for $20 - $25/hr.

It's not necessarily that easy, Jay.
There are C152s for rent for around $70/hr wet here, but depending on
how much you and your CFI weigh (together with full fuel), a C152 isn't
a suitable trainer for a lot of people. Nearly all C172s are around
$100/hr, the newer ones (post 2000) are upwards of $125/hr. Most
*schools* charge $35-40/hr for their CFIs because THEY want to make at
least $20-25/hr off of them, and their CFIs are not free to teach in
aircraft that don't belong also belong to the school without a letter of
subrogation from the insurance company insuring the airplane absolving
the flight school from any liability with THEIR CFI if there's an
accident.

*** I had no trouble finding independant CFIs to train me in my own
airplane.
Except that it was a taildragger ( Cessna 140 ), and there's just not
that many tailwheel CFI's out there.

Speaking of insurance, you will pay through the nose for an
insurance company to allow a private individual to use his airplane,
even a C152, for training that allows the solo of a non-rated student.

*** No trouble with that, either. My insurance company was completely
on board, and covered me both dual and solo, as long as I remained
within
the rules. When I got the Private, my rate didn't change, either. Of
course,
that was about 10 years ago, maybe things have changed?

BTW I highly recommend buying an airplane to train in - but you do
need
to be pretty enthusiastic & committed to make it work. Ready to get
your
hands dirty. If you pay people to do EVERYTHING - including changing
the oil etc, it might be better to rent. Also, it's arguable that
ownersip issues
can distract from concentration on learning to fly. Although I did not
find it so.
Just by virtue of having the airplane always sitting out there
available, I
racked up a bunch of solo hours.

The 140 was well matched to the mission - carrying one student, one
CFI,
one flight bag - and in training - hour building - who cares how slow
it is?
The only exception - I flew my long XC in the winter, and it was hard
to cram
that many miles into a short winter day at 90MPH.

- Jerry Kaidor ( )

unicate wrote:
"Jay Honeck" wrote:
There are plenty of flight schools that will rent you a 152 for $70/hr
wet, and lots of CFIs that still work for $20 - $25/hr.

It's not necessarily that easy, Jay.
There are C152s for rent for around $70/hr wet here, but depending on
how much you and your CFI weigh (together with full fuel), a C152 isn't
a suitable trainer for a lot of people. Nearly all C172s are around
$100/hr, the newer ones (post 2000) are upwards of $125/hr. Most
*schools* charge $35-40/hr for their CFIs because THEY want to make at
least $20-25/hr off of them, and their CFIs are not free to teach in
aircraft that don't belong also belong to the school without a letter of
subrogation from the insurance company insuring the airplane absolving
the flight school from any liability with THEIR CFI if there's an
accident.

*** I had no trouble finding independant CFIs to train me in my own
airplane.
Except that it was a taildragger ( Cessna 140 ), and there's just not
that many tailwheel CFI's out there.

Speaking of insurance, you will pay through the nose for an
insurance company to allow a private individual to use his airplane,
even a C152, for training that allows the solo of a non-rated student.

*** No trouble with that, either. My insurance company was completely
on board, and covered me both dual and solo, as long as I remained
within
the rules. When I got the Private, my rate didn't change, either. Of
course,
that was about 10 years ago, maybe things have changed?

BTW I highly recommend buying an airplane to train in - but you do
need
to be pretty enthusiastic & committed to make it work. Ready to get
your
hands dirty. If you pay people to do EVERYTHING - including changing
the oil etc, it might be better to rent. Also, it's arguable that
ownersip issues
can distract from concentration on learning to fly. Although I did not
find it so.
Just by virtue of having the airplane always sitting out there
available, I
racked up a bunch of solo hours.

The 140 was well matched to the mission - carrying one student, one
CFI,
one flight bag - and in training - hour building - who cares how slow
it is?
The only exception - I flew my long XC in the winter, and it was hard
to cram
that many miles into a short winter day at 90MPH.

- Jerry Kaidor ( )

unicate wrote:
"Jay Honeck" wrote:
There are plenty of flight schools that will rent you a 152 for $70/hr
wet, and lots of CFIs that still work for $20 - $25/hr.

It's not necessarily that easy, Jay.
There are C152s for rent for around $70/hr wet here, but depending on
how much you and your CFI weigh (together with full fuel), a C152 isn't
a suitable trainer for a lot of people. Nearly all C172s are around
$100/hr, the newer ones (post 2000) are upwards of $125/hr. Most
*schools* charge $35-40/hr for their CFIs because THEY want to make at
least $20-25/hr off of them, and their CFIs are not free to teach in
aircraft that don't belong also belong to the school without a letter of
subrogation from the insurance company insuring the airplane absolving
the flight school from any liability with THEIR CFI if there's an
accident.

*** I had no trouble finding independant CFIs to train me in my own
airplane.
Except that it was a taildragger ( Cessna 140 ), and there's just not
that many tailwheel CFI's out there.

Speaking of insurance, you will pay through the nose for an
insurance company to allow a private individual to use his airplane,
even a C152, for training that allows the solo of a non-rated student.

*** No trouble with that, either. My insurance company was completely
on board, and covered me both dual and solo, as long as I remained
within
the rules. When I got the Private, my rate didn't change, either. Of
course,
that was about 10 years ago, maybe things have changed?

BTW I highly recommend buying an airplane to train in - but you do
need
to be pretty enthusiastic & committed to make it work. Ready to get
your
hands dirty. If you pay people to do EVERYTHING - including changing
the oil etc, it might be better to rent. Also, it's arguable that
ownersip issues
can distract from concentration on learning to fly. Although I did not
find it so.
Just by virtue of having the airplane always sitting out there
available, I
racked up a bunch of solo hours.

The 140 was well matched to the mission - carrying one student, one
CFI,
one flight bag - and in training - hour building - who cares how slow
it is?
The only exception - I flew my long XC in the winter, and it was hard
to cram
that many miles into a short winter day at 90MPH.

- Jerry Kaidor ( )

Mxsmanic wrote:
If you have to "want it badly enough," that implies that something
else must be sacrificed. If it's not money (because you say that you
don't need five figures to do it), then what are you giving up to get
a license at a reasonable cost and in a reasonable time?

Oh, I swore I wasn't going to reply (so, Dudley, what do you win this time?)

All of life is a sacrifice. When I was in the market to buy a house,
I looked at my finances and decided how much was practical for
monthly expenses, mortgage, taxes and down payment. Did I get the
house in the location I *REALLY* wanted? Nope. No amount of
sacrifice would have made that happen. However, I do have a very
comfortable house in a very practical location (close to light-rail,
close to bus service, easy access to interstate, 2 blocks to
the grocery store, etc).

Every action in life is a trade-off. Some of us prefer to make
the trade-off for flight. Others make the trade-off for other
interests. I chose flying. So stop berating people about flying
being a "rich man's hobby".

I'm neither rich nor a man, nor do I consider flying a "hobby".