Spins

Peter Dohm wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .
wrote in
:

...
The typicl spin accident, if there is such a thing, is the famous
overcooked turn onto final.
I watched two guys die after doing that on a tight, low, turn to a short
final...

Geoff
What gets them isn't really the turn per se, but the way that turn is
flown. The combination of the increased stall speed due to the turn
coupled with some excess inside rudder causing a skid as the stall breaks
is a perfect pro-spin setup. The two ingredients for spin are present;
stall and a yaw rate coupled simultaneously .
You can get away with a tight low turn if it's coordinated and you feed in
enough power to offset the drag rise; or even better yet an unloaded tight
descending turn if some altitude and some radius need to be scrubbed
off,(I don't recommend doing these BTW :-) but it's that lack of attention
to the extra needed thrust as the drag rises in the turn and cheating a
bit with inside rudder to "force that nose around that will get you
killed.


--
Dudley Henriques

Since I probably qualify as hopelessly unqualified, and also since both of
you have already described this in different words, I should probably "keep
my mouth shut"; but from all I have heard, things happen much more suddenly
as part of an uncoordinated accellerated stall.

I never personally got to explore the accellerated stall portion of the
envelope, and only had an accellerated stall demonstrated to me once. That
once was by a pilot who was so proficient, smooth and coordinated that the
stall was a complete non-event and we simply flew out of it and continued
the turn as though nothing had happened. And, yes, this was in a Cessna 152
that was appropriately certified for that sort of work. However, viewed in
another manner, the guy (who was a high time instructor) would have been the
perfect candidate to train new instrucors to let their students kill them...

When I resume flying, as I plan to do, I also plan to more fully explore the
accelerated stall area of the envelope--in an appropriate trainer of course.

Peter



Good idea. Reason for this is that the majority of accidental stall
incidents will be accelerated. It takes a pilot seriously asleep to
gently allow an airplane to stall accidentally at power off and 1g.
Accelerated stall is an area of flight that all pilots should be
completely familiar with.
I spent MUCH more time with accelerated stall than simple power off
stalls at 1g with every student I taught to fly. I only wish all
instructors did the same.

--
Dudley Henriques

wrote:
On Jan 17, 1:23 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
wrote:

In a descending turn, the inside wing has a higher angle

of attack and will stall first, even if the airplane is coordinated in
the turn. Then it'll spin. Too many students are never taught that.
They think that as long as they're coordinated, they're safe. It's not
true. That's why we have stall/spin scenario training: so they see the
various conditions that can cause it. Awareness is greatly enhanced,
believe me. They get much more careful in the circuit.
Dan
We'll have to get together someday and have a quiet drink over this one
Dan :-)))

--
Dudley Henriques

Love to do that. Coffee, though. Here's a good article on
the subject:

http://www.casa.gov.au/fsa/2000/sep/FSA34-35.pdf

Second page deals with it.

Dan
Got it. Drop me a line back channel and I'll make a few comments on it
and we can toss it around a bit :-)

--
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" wrote:
better yet an unloaded tight descending turn if some altitude and some
radius need to be scrubbed off,(I don't recommend doing these BTW :-)

Why not, Dudley? This is a maneuver I use quite often because I like to
make power-off landings.

Am I on the verge of augering in without realizing it?

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

Dan Luke wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote:
better yet an unloaded tight descending turn if some altitude and some
radius need to be scrubbed off,(I don't recommend doing these BTW :-)

Why not, Dudley? This is a maneuver I use quite often because I like to
make power-off landings.

Am I on the verge of augering in without realizing it?

Good question. Let me explain.

In posting on the forums where student pilots might be involved, when
discussing things like unloaded descending turns from base to final, I
try not to post comments without a "warning" of some kind. The reason I
do this is that although well trained pilots can and indeed make turnds
like this all day long in perfect safety, they are still in the category
of a tight turn made at low altitude and I don't want anyone getting
hurt trying to something based on what I have said on a forum.
Becoming capable to make a turn like we are discussing is part of a
pilot's training that should be accomplished in the airplane with a
competent instructor there on the job to make sure the pilot learns how
to make such a turn properly. Once this is accomplished, most pilots
won't even think about making that turn. They will know from where they
are in the pattern, how tight the turn has to be, and whether or not the
conditions are within safe parameters or outside safe parameters.
In other words, it's safe enough if done properly as I'm sure you are
aware, but only after a thorough examination of the factors involved.

Just as an aside; I always covered late base to final turns with my own
students before solo!

--
Dudley Henriques

wrote in message
...
I went over to the student board a while back. Someone, who I believe
was not yet even a student pilot, was all on about how spins should
not be allowed because they were too dangerous to be taught.

That's a complete and total crock.

Getting ready to go do them again for the CFI rating. I did them during my
private training, but it was so long ago and not for a rating that
theoretically they could fail me because we didn't wear parachutes.
Aww...bummer. Have to go have fun in a C-152 again.

During my Commercial checkride the examiner said that instructors need to
put more emphasis on stall entry recognition and spin avoidance since, often
as not, spins occur during departure or approach at altitudes far to low for
spin recovery to occur.


-c

"Ron Wanttaja" wrote in message

This spin entry was different. There I was, about a seventy-degree left
bank,
pulling hard on the stick to impress my buddy in the back seat, and WHAM.
Ol'
N1660G snapped to the right, went inverted, and tucked into a whirling
dervish
of an upright spin.

Wow! I had spin training working on my PPL too, but if that happened to me
my first time out with pax, I wonder if I'd ever gotten back on that horse.
Needless to say, your practice paid off.


-c

On Jan 17, 5:27*pm, Stefan wrote:
A half flick to
inverted, followed by a half loop downwards. Obviously there was still
some slip present, because suddenly, at 45 degrees pitch, just where the
G load starts to build, that pretty landscape in front of me disappeared
and all I saw was a blurry, undefined and rotating green disc.

You did in that Fox out of a split-S what I almost did in the
Starduster out of a loop. The difference is that the Starduster is a
biplane with the wings set slightly differently (if it's rigged right)
and so after you stall the top wing, you get a little time to
recognize it before you stall the bottom wing. If you're sloppy
enough to stall the bottom wing too, and you are even slightly
uncoordinated, you're going for a ride.

As an aside - I would love to fly a Fox if I could do it without
having to purchase one or join a club. Where can they be rented?

Surprize, I can tell you! One second or even two went by before I
understood what was going on. Maybe another second to recognize to wich
side the disc was rotating. And maybe a third second to sort out which
foot to use.

Yeah, well, that's why there's an order of magnitude difference
between enough altitude for an expert to do acro safely and a novice
to learn it safely.

The actual recovery then was a non event, and I succeeded even to hit
the axis. But since that experience I strongly believe that the usual
spin demonstration (1,2,3, yank that stick back and stomp onto the
pedal) is pretty much useless to prepare a pilot for that accidental spin.

Well, maybe. I would argue that having practiced the recovery still
has some value. How much? Well, probably not enough to subject
oneself to the risk of being 'taught' to do it by someone who isn't
really prepared either.

Actually, I'll go a step further. I would argue that the usual stall
demonstration is no more useful for preparing a pilot for that
accidental stall. But see, this is where instructor experience comes
in. An experienced pilot who has experimented with the edges of the
envelope will have, as a minimum, flirted with inadvertent stall.
Maybe an inadvertent spin as well. When that kind of instructor pilot
does spin training, the risk isn't really there (which is why the
aerobatic training record is pretty clean). At that point, I think an
intro to spins, limited as it is, is justifiable.

Michael

Michael schrieb:

As an aside - I would love to fly a Fox if I could do it without
having to purchase one or join a club. Where can they be rented?

Depends on where you're living :-) I know some in different places in
Europe, however if you should happen to live on the other side of the
pond, a search through the glider sites listed at SSA's should help.

I know from earlier internet searches that two operators in Phoenix have
been renting aerobatic gliders (Arizona soaring a Fox, Turf soaring a
Swift) but I'm sure there are more.

wrote:

Now, while it may be the case that the airplane will recover in that
condition, that is speculation to me and anyone else until proved
otherwise in a fairly dangerous experiment in test piloting.


I think I see the disconnect here. My Cherokee is one of those planes
that is placarded for spins in the Utility Category only. It's there for
good reason. As the CG moves aft towards the back end of the Utility
envelope, the spin tends to flatten on about the 3rd or 4th turn.

The thing to remember is that this placard is directed at intentional spins.
That's entirely different from the certification standards in Part 23 (or CAR
3, for older planes) that the plane must be able to recover from a 1 turn
spin in the Normal Category. I wouldn't consider it speculation, since the
factory was required to demonstrate the capability in a loaded airplane
during certification. The only light single that I know of that has not
passed spin testing during certification is the Cirrus.

The reason I think that getting some spin training is a good idea is
because the experience will probably help the pilot recognize what is going
on while the spin is still in the incipient phase.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...ation/200801/1

"JGalban via AviationKB.com" u32749@uwe wrote in
news:7e69c4aa98ddd@uwe:

wrote:

Now, while it may be the case that the airplane will recover in that
condition, that is speculation to me and anyone else until proved
otherwise in a fairly dangerous experiment in test piloting.


I think I see the disconnect here. My Cherokee is one of those
planes
that is placarded for spins in the Utility Category only. It's there
for good reason. As the CG moves aft towards the back end of the
Utility envelope, the spin tends to flatten on about the 3rd or 4th
turn.

The thing to remember is that this placard is directed at
intentional spins.
That's entirely different from the certification standards in Part 23
(or CAR 3, for older planes) that the plane must be able to recover
from a 1 turn spin in the Normal Category. I wouldn't consider it
speculation, since the factory was required to demonstrate the
capability in a loaded airplane during certification. The only light
single that I know of that has not passed spin testing during
certification is the Cirrus.


No, there have been a lot of them over the years. Criteria, IIRC is that if
it can't spin, you don't have to prove it;'s capability!

Not that that stopped a guy I knew from trying everything he could to get a
no pedals Ercoupe to spin!


Bertie