THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY

From: Mike Marron
Date: 2/7/2004 10:48 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

B2431 ) wrote:

In a recent thread marron accused the USAF of being responsible for 9-11.

Huh? Either post the exact comment where I specifically accused the
USAF of being "responsible for 9/11" or go back to your scintillating
"pitot tube" arguments with Tarver.


The thread starts at:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...36a5d81.040107
1041.fe49dd9%40posting.google.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26
ie%3DISO-8859-1%26q%3DRon%2B(banmilk%40hotmail.com)%2B9%252F11%2 6meta%3Dgr
oup%253Drec.aviation.military.*

And has about 200 posts. Most seem to involve you.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

"Mike Marron" wrote in message
...

Hey if you're that nieve as to buy into every one of Kramer's
self-aggrandizing, mittyesque war stories, that's YOUR problem
pal, not mine....

If there is a problem, it's between your ears, not mine.
As for self aggrandising, who died and made you God?
As for mittyesque, I tell you three times that truth is infinitely
stranger than fiction, and you are infinitely strange.


The CO

"Mike Marron" wrote in message
...

snip

I only wish that I had your military experience! I wish...I wish!!

I wish you had *any* military experience. You might conceivably spout less
bull****,
but then again, you have so much natural talent....
Perhaps one day your alligator mouth will insult someone in person and get
that
blowfly arse of yours kicked in the real world as well as in cyberspace.

The CO

"The CO" wrote:

Perhaps one day your alligator mouth will insult someone in person and get
that blowfly arse of yours kicked in the real world as well as in cyberspace.

Anytime, anywhere pal.


The CO
^^^^^^^^

Sheeeeit.

"Mike Marron" wrote in message
...
snip
The CO
^^^^^^^^

Sheeeeit.

I *hold* that appointment. Your problem is?

The CO

(BUFDRVR) wrote in message ...
do you think fighter and bomber pilots (in
general) have a completely diffferent mindset in regard to the final
missions of a tour? I know they're different breeds to begin with

I've often heard this, and I have trouble believing it. Usually the "fighter
pilot" lable is defined as agressive, unshakeable and highly skilled (someone
correct me if that's not the generalized definition).

I in no way want to imply that bomber men are inferior to figthers.
They both have to be unshakeable and highly skilled and even the
bomber pilot has to be aggressive to a certain extent. But there has
to be a different mindset for the fighter pilot if he's going to be
successful at shooting other men out of the sky or streaking low
through flak to drop bombs, compared with the mind set of a bomber
that has to flying straight and level and take what get's thrown up at
him.

The whole reason I brought this up was while you hear of WWII heavy
bomber crews wearing thin toward the end of their tours, you don't
hear the same thing about their brothers escorting them in fighters.
I'm wondering if that was because of a different mind sets to begin
with, or if it was because of different circumstances (fighters
weren't being lost in as great of numbers and they could hunt their
enemies down and kill them instead of sitting there waiting to be hit
by them). Maybe if they had had a higher attrition rate, they would
have started getting jumpy too as their tours neared completion? But
according to Ed, in Vietnam that didn't happen among fighters, if any
thing they got more confident and aggressive as things wound down for
them.

~Michael

Subject: THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY
From: (Michael)
Date: 2/9/04 7:23 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(BUFDRVR) wrote in message
...
do you think fighter and bomber pilots (in
general) have a completely diffferent mindset in regard to the final
missions of a tour? I know they're different breeds to begin with

I've often heard this, and I have trouble believing it. Usually the
"fighter
pilot" lable is defined as agressive, unshakeable and highly skilled
(someone
correct me if that's not the generalized definition).

I in no way want to imply that bomber men are inferior to figthers.
They both have to be unshakeable and highly skilled and even the
bomber pilot has to be aggressive to a certain extent. But there has
to be a different mindset for the fighter pilot if he's going to be
successful at shooting other men out of the sky or streaking low
through flak to drop bombs, compared with the mind set of a bomber
that has to flying straight and level and take what get's thrown up at
him.

The whole reason I brought this up was while you hear of WWII heavy
bomber crews wearing thin toward the end of their tours, you don't
hear the same thing about their brothers escorting them in fighters.
I'm wondering if that was because of a different mind sets to begin
with, or if it was because of different circumstances (fighters
weren't being lost in as great of numbers and they could hunt their
enemies down and kill them instead of sitting there waiting to be hit
by them). Maybe if they had had a higher attrition rate, they would
have started getting jumpy too as their tours neared completion? But
according to Ed, in Vietnam that didn't happen among fighters, if any
thing they got more confident and aggressive as things wound down for
them.

~Michael


I was there right to the bitter end. And as time went on and men got killed
just before the war ended, it gave us all a lot to think about.. But in bombers
you can't be :"careful" You flew your last mission just like your first. It
was all SOP all the way. No wiggle room whatever. Go to my website and read "
The Last To Die".



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(Michael) wrote:

[snipped for brevity]

The whole reason I brought this up was while you hear of WWII heavy
bomber crews wearing thin toward the end of their tours, you don't
hear the same thing about their brothers escorting them in fighters.

Probably the best narrative about fighter pilots that I've ever seen
was "A Fighter Pilot's Story" which aired on PBS some time ago.

Quentin Aanenson, a P-47 pilot, talks about the trials and
tribulations of combat -- sans the usual bravado and chest thumping
(not entirely a bad thing, mind you) that goes on whenever a fighter
pilot has an audience.

One of the documentary's most poignant moments is when Aanenson,
an avid sportsman before the war, returns home and shoots a rabbit
while hunting in his native Loiusiana. Aanenson said killing the
animal made him feel sick afterwards, and he never fired a gun again.

Conversely, when I asked my Dad if he ever saw any NVA or Viet Cong
communists during his combat tour flying A-1's over SEA, he said
"Ya...a lot of DEAD ones!"

Then we went hunting.

They both have to be unshakeable and highly skilled and even the
bomber pilot has to be aggressive to a certain extent.

You should be just as agressive on a bomb run as you would in 6 G turn with an
enemy fighter. I used to tell my crew prior to the IP; "everyone get your fangs
out!!!"

a different mindset for the fighter pilot if he's going to be
successful at shooting other men out of the sky or streaking low
through flak to drop bombs, compared with the mind set of a bomber
that has to flying straight and level and take what get's thrown up at
him.

Fortunately the "fly straight and level and take what's thrown up at you" era,
for the most part, died night #3 of Linebacker II. While we don't "streak"
through flak, we will "pop around" it, and while we obviously don't shoot other
people down, pressing your attack through a SAM salvo takes (IMHO) as much guts
and skill.

The whole reason I brought this up was while you hear of WWII heavy
bomber crews wearing thin toward the end of their tours, you don't
hear the same thing about their brothers escorting them in fighters.

Because the attrition rate was orders of magnitude worse and the tactic of "fly
straight and level and take what's thrown up at you" tends to give you the
feeling, your fate is not in your hands, which tends to demoralize you, or
gives you a feeling of comfort. Unfortunately, for most people its the former.

I'm wondering if that was because of a different mind sets to begin
with, or if it was because of different circumstances

IMHO, it was the circumstances.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 04:42:30 GMT, Mike Marron wrote:

"The CO" wrote:
"Mike Marron" wrote:

The author of the story (e.g: Kramer) is the real coward.

Sir, I take very strong exception to this remark.

Hey if you're that nieve as to buy into every one of Kramer's
self-aggrandizing, mittyesque war stories, that's YOUR problem
pal, not mine....

"Your stuff is the most interesting on this NG. You can't beat
being there no matter what. I look for your posts every time
I log on. Keep 'em flying."

-- Art Kramer bragging on himself while posing as "Autocollimator"

Mr Kramer served his Country in a highly honorable way. Something
that you are incapable of (probably due to your cowardice). You
are a buffoon and are an embarrassment to your country.

Al Minyard