Is this the death of GA

This is one rule that I believe is grounded in common sense.

Yep, there's always an example of some catastrophe that happened somewhere
that should make every civilized convenience illegal.

Iowa City is the oldest airport west of the Mississippi still in its
original location. The FBO has fueled aircraft in T-hangars (with the big
door open, of course) since before World War II, by my estimation, without
mishap. It's called "service", and yes, it's a pain in the butt to go to
the hangars, raise the door, and fuel the planes -- but thank God our FBO
hasn't yet used "safety" and "liability" as an excuse to be lazy, as so many
other businesses have.

Is there a slight risk to fueling in an unheated, outdoor hangar with the
big door open? I don't know -- but if you use a grounding strap/cord, and
you use approved fueling techniques and equipment, and you pump the fuel
from a professional-grade tank/pump, can you even *measure* a risk that
small? Has any aircraft self-immolated while being properly fueled? Has
any car?

I grow weary of this country wringing its hands over crap like this, while
the real issues of the day aren't even discussed.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Feb 24, 11:00*pm, "Jay Honeck" wrote:
This is one rule that I believe is grounded in common sense.

Yep, there's always an example of some catastrophe that happened somewhere
that should make every civilized convenience illegal.

Iowa City is the oldest airport west of the Mississippi still in its
original location. *The FBO has fueled aircraft in T-hangars (with the big
door open, of course) since before World War II, by my estimation, without
mishap. * It's called "service", and yes, it's a pain in the butt to go to
the hangars, raise the door, and fuel the planes -- but thank God our FBO
hasn't yet used "safety" and "liability" as an excuse to be lazy, as so many
other businesses have.

Is there a slight risk to fueling in an unheated, outdoor hangar with the
big door open? * I don't know -- but if you use a grounding strap/cord, and
you use approved fueling techniques and equipment, and you pump the fuel
from a professional-grade tank/pump, can you even *measure* a risk that
small? * Has any aircraft self-immolated while being properly fueled? * Has
any car?

I grow weary of this country wringing its hands over crap like this, while
the real issues of the day aren't even discussed.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

That's a lot of ifs Jay. Is the convenience, in this case really
worth it? Is your insurance company aware of this practice? My guess
is no. I would have to go with Matt on this one, Jay.

Wil

"Jay Honeck" wrote in
news3rwj.48557$9j6.45072@attbi_s22:

This is one rule that I believe is grounded in common sense.

Yep, there's always an example of some catastrophe that happened
somewhere that should make every civilized convenience illegal.

If any more evidence were requited that you are a complete idiot, this is
it.

Bertie

On Feb 24, 11:00 pm, "Jay Honeck" wrote:

Is there a slight risk to fueling in an unheated, outdoor hangar with the
big door open? I don't know -- but if you use a grounding strap/cord, and
you use approved fueling techniques and equipment, and you pump the fuel
from a professional-grade tank/pump, can you even *measure* a risk that
small? Has any aircraft self-immolated while being properly fueled? Has
any car?

I grow weary of this country wringing its hands over crap like this, while
the real issues of the day aren't even discussed.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Risk is defined as probability x potential loss. So, despite there
being very little risk that my rifle will go off when I'm cleaning it,
I still never point it at anyone or anything that would be harmed.

The probability is low (I'm cleaning it, and thus have cleared it,
removed the bolt, etc), but the potential damage is death. Thus it's
risky.

So I don't skateboard -- the probability that I will fall and bust my
assets is near 100%, though the potential damage ranges from minor to
catastrophic (that falling on the railing with legs spread
thing !!!!).

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I hadn't thought through this
refueling-in-the-hangar thing much, but some of the replies make
sense. While the probability may be low (as evidenced by your
experience), the potential damage is very high -- lost airplanes (T-
Hangars are by definition multiple), buildings, equipment, tools,
cases of oil, Swimsuit Edition calendars -- the works.

And while it's true that "society" has become a bit too "worried"
about everything, perhaps we reasonable people (pilots) should make
every attempt to reduce the perception of risk. If a String of T-
hangars lights up the Iowa sky, think of the gleeful doom the local
news will engender.

"If you look behind me, Carlita, you will see the flames rising 200
FEET into the air, spreading a witches brew of toxic materials -- the
airport manager won't talk to me on camera, but we learned that the
each of the several dozen Cessnas parked inside are worth at least
$500,000, and each has about 800 gallons of HIGHLY FLAMMABLE JET fuel
on board. Whoa! Did you hear that? We'll move our cameras a bit..."

"Wow.. Scary stuff Jim -- we'll keep you updated with all the latest
from the scene..."



Dan

Matt Whiting wrote:
total loss.

This is one rule that I believe is grounded in common sense.

Matt

Not only common sense but its written into the local fire codes
in virtually every city or town.

Fueling an aircraft in a hangar is irresponsible and dangerous.

wrote:

"If you look behind me, Carlita, you will see the flames rising 200
FEET into the air, spreading a witches brew of toxic materials -- the
airport manager won't talk to me on camera, but we learned that the
each of the several dozen Cessnas parked inside are worth at least
$500,000, and each has about 800 gallons of HIGHLY FLAMMABLE JET fuel
on board. Whoa! Did you hear that? We'll move our cameras a bit..."

"Wow.. Scary stuff Jim -- we'll keep you updated with all the latest
from the scene..."


Not to mention the fact that the hangars probably won't ever be
rebuilt because of the lawsuits. The insurance Co. will refuse
to pay the loss because the airport encouraged fueling policies
that were known to be dangerous and contrary to fire codes.

Jay Honeck writes:

Ten years ago, when we first moved into a hangar, we would return from a
flight, put the plane away, and flip a little red flapper up on the door.
Next time we came to the airport, the flapper was down, the plane was fully
fueled, and we'd get a bill at the end of the month. God, I miss those
days...

How does it work now?

William Hung writes:

That's a lot of ifs Jay. Is the convenience, in this case really
worth it? Is your insurance company aware of this practice? My guess
is no. I would have to go with Matt on this one, Jay.

What percentage of refuelings of this type have ended in fire?

Insurance companies always want zero risk, for maximum profit. They don't
care how much it costs their clients.

On Feb 25, 11:08 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
William Hung writes:
That's a lot of ifs Jay. Is the convenience, in this case really
worth it? Is your insurance company aware of this practice? My guess
is no. I would have to go with Matt on this one, Jay.

What percentage of refuelings of this type have ended in fire?

Insurance companies always want zero risk, for maximum profit. They don't
care how much it costs their clients.

Not exactly.

"Insurance companies" are businesses which must provide a service at a
price some portion of the population is willing to pay. It's called
the intersection of Supply and Demand.

In Capitalism there is a tension between "maximizing profit" and
remaining competitive. This is a Good Thing, and it is the engine that
drives free economies.

But given your ABC Nightly News Level understanding of business, I'm
thinking this is a waste of effort.

Dan

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Jay Honeck writes:

Ten years ago, when we first moved into a hangar, we would return
from a flight, put the plane away, and flip a little red flapper up
on the door. Next time we came to the airport, the flapper was down,
the plane was fully fueled, and we'd get a bill at the end of the
month. God, I miss those days...

How does it work now?


Oh it;s just like getting a top up on your mobile.


Bertie