Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.

"Kevin Brooks" wrote
"Bob Coe" wrote
"ArtKramr" wrote

Bomber crews:
Silver Wings upon their chest
These are men, America's best
One hundred men will test today
But only three won't make the grade.

Did you make the grade?

Nope. I got passed down to a fricking OV-10 outfit, and
won my wings where no one flunked, or could flunk...

"pull back, houses get smaller; push forward, houses get bigger."
-- OV-10 check-ride.

Unfortunately, you'd have to be a bit more explanatory when presenting that
to Art--he probably thinks an OV-10 is some kind of overhead cam ten
cylinder engine.

My brother had nice thoughts of OV-10's; spent a night on a hilltop during
Lam Son 719 (IIRC) after his dustoff UH-1 had been shot down and they had to
wait till morning to get evaced out. He said that there was always an OV-10
circling about their crash site throughout the night, ready to help out if
the bad guys got too close, something he was pretty appreciative of. Did you
do a SEA tour?

Those guys were the ones that trained me, thankfully!

No. Before my time, I started flying in 73. Spent all of my time in Central, and
South America. Flew mostly Hurlburt Field taskings, did a tour at Sembach 76
to 79. Got stuck at TAC and CENTAF for my last five years working with the
shiny boot and scarf airline candidates.

"Two screws! Always better than a couple of blow jobs" -- Bronco Bob

"Bob Coe" wrote in message
news:w6BXc.14714$ni.12902@okepread01...
"Kevin Brooks" wrote
"Bob Coe" wrote
"ArtKramr" wrote

Bomber crews:
Silver Wings upon their chest
These are men, America's best
One hundred men will test today
But only three won't make the grade.

Did you make the grade?

Nope. I got passed down to a fricking OV-10 outfit, and
won my wings where no one flunked, or could flunk...

"pull back, houses get smaller; push forward, houses get bigger."
-- OV-10 check-ride.

Unfortunately, you'd have to be a bit more explanatory when presenting
that
to Art--he probably thinks an OV-10 is some kind of overhead cam ten
cylinder engine.

My brother had nice thoughts of OV-10's; spent a night on a hilltop
during
Lam Son 719 (IIRC) after his dustoff UH-1 had been shot down and they
had to
wait till morning to get evaced out. He said that there was always an
OV-10
circling about their crash site throughout the night, ready to help out
if
the bad guys got too close, something he was pretty appreciative of. Did
you
do a SEA tour?

Those guys were the ones that trained me, thankfully!

No. Before my time, I started flying in 73. Spent all of my time in
Central, and
South America. Flew mostly Hurlburt Field taskings, did a tour at Sembach
76
to 79. Got stuck at TAC and CENTAF for my last five years working with
the
shiny boot and scarf airline candidates.

Ever do Palmerola (now referred to as Soto Cano, IIRC)? Flew in and out of
there a few times via C-141 when we did a road construction project over in
Yorro Province of Honduras. When I was there (late 87 and early 88), the
Army MI folks were using it to operate RC-12's doing their usual hush-hush
stuff.

I don't recall ever seeing a USAF OV-10 in operation (which IIRC ended in
the early eighties), but I do remember seeing USMC variants flying out of
Biggs AAF at Fort Bliss, TX while I was TDY down there in early 87 (I think
they were participating in the JTF 6 counterdrug effort); interesting
aircraft. The last one I saw was serving with the USFS up in Alaska, doing
fire-fighting control work and I think also working with the smoke jumpers
out of Fairbanks.

Brooks


"Two screws! Always better than a couple of blow jobs" -- Bronco Bob

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:40:12 -0400, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

Ever do Palmerola (now referred to as Soto Cano, IIRC)? Flew in and out of
there a few times via C-141 when we did a road construction project over in
Yorro Province of Honduras. When I was there (late 87 and early 88), the
Army MI folks were using it to operate RC-12's doing their usual hush-hush
stuff.

I don't recall ever seeing a USAF OV-10 in operation (which IIRC ended in
the early eighties), but I do remember seeing USMC variants flying out of
Biggs AAF at Fort Bliss, TX while I was TDY down there in early 87 (I think
they were participating in the JTF 6 counterdrug effort); interesting
aircraft. The last one I saw was serving with the USFS up in Alaska, doing
fire-fighting control work and I think also working with the smoke jumpers
out of Fairbanks.

The USAF was still training FAC's in both the OV-10 and O-2A in 1984
at Patrick AFB. I deployed with a half-dozen AT-38s for a great two
weeks of flying--playing fast-mover fighters for the FAC students to
control. Since we had done the fighter orientation for the FAC
students about a month earlier at Holloman, teaching them high-threat
and low-threat tactics and basic bomb dropping, it was a lot of fun to
see the guys moving into their real assignment.

The air-FACs were deactivated about two years later and several of the
FACs that I had trained at Holloman were doing the attached ground-FAC
mission with battalions in the brigade that I was assigned to as ALO
out of Fort Carson. They weren't very happy about the ground job and
were all counting the days until their tour was up and they could
cross-train into another aircraft.

I worked with a lot of Broncos in '72/'73 where they were doing both
day and night work throughout SVN, southern Laos and Cambodia. A close
friend of mine has the dubious distinction of being one of only two
OV-10 drivers who was shot down and captured by the NVN. He spent
about seven months in the Hilton and Plantation.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:40:12 -0400, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

Ever do Palmerola (now referred to as Soto Cano, IIRC)? Flew in and out
of
there a few times via C-141 when we did a road construction project over
in
Yorro Province of Honduras. When I was there (late 87 and early 88), the
Army MI folks were using it to operate RC-12's doing their usual
hush-hush
stuff.

I don't recall ever seeing a USAF OV-10 in operation (which IIRC ended in
the early eighties), but I do remember seeing USMC variants flying out of
Biggs AAF at Fort Bliss, TX while I was TDY down there in early 87 (I
think
they were participating in the JTF 6 counterdrug effort); interesting
aircraft. The last one I saw was serving with the USFS up in Alaska,
doing
fire-fighting control work and I think also working with the smoke
jumpers
out of Fairbanks.

The USAF was still training FAC's in both the OV-10 and O-2A in 1984
at Patrick AFB. I deployed with a half-dozen AT-38s for a great two
weeks of flying--playing fast-mover fighters for the FAC students to
control. Since we had done the fighter orientation for the FAC
students about a month earlier at Holloman, teaching them high-threat
and low-threat tactics and basic bomb dropping, it was a lot of fun to
see the guys moving into their real assignment.

The air-FACs were deactivated about two years later and several of the
FACs that I had trained at Holloman were doing the attached ground-FAC
mission with battalions in the brigade that I was assigned to as ALO
out of Fort Carson. They weren't very happy about the ground job and
were all counting the days until their tour was up and they could
cross-train into another aircraft.

I worked with a lot of Broncos in '72/'73 where they were doing both
day and night work throughout SVN, southern Laos and Cambodia. A close
friend of mine has the dubious distinction of being one of only two
OV-10 drivers who was shot down and captured by the NVN. He spent
about seven months in the Hilton and Plantation.

During the Honduran operation I mentioned above, one of the maintenance
CWO's for the task force was a former aviator type who had later lost his
flight ticket due to medical reasons (he had flown both helos and C-12's
before that happened). He was one of the few Army aviators (if not the only
one) to have spent time as a PW in Vietnam; he had gone down way up in I
Corps, near the DMZ, when his OH-6 Loach took ground fire (this would also
have been around 1972, IIRC). The "small world" theory comes into play ehre,
because one of the units that went out looking for him was my bother's
dustoff unit, the 571st (he was there from early 71 to early 72).

Brooks



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org

M. J. Powell wrote:
ArtKramr wrote:
Robert Briggs wrote:

And I *do* wonder how much chance Art would have stood without, for
example, the erks who maintained those noisy fan thingies hanging
from Willie's wings ...

I love the guys that maintained the noisy fan thingies that hung from
Willies wings. But we went to war. They didn'lt.

There were quite a number of RAF erks, particularly at Manston, who
would disagree with you.

But they can't. They died around the aircraft they were servicing.

Did Stansted get raided much?

Mike, don't forget that the erks at Manston and other RAF fields were
in greater danger years before Art arrived at Stansted than when he
was on his missions ...

Robert wrote:
Mike, don't forget that the erks at Manston and other RAF fields were
in greater danger years before Art arrived at Stansted than when he
was on his missions ...

Art was still in High School then.

Rick

"Robert Briggs" wrote in message
...
M. J. Powell wrote:
ArtKramr wrote:
Robert Briggs wrote:

And I *do* wonder how much chance Art would have stood without, for
example, the erks who maintained those noisy fan thingies hanging
from Willie's wings ...

I love the guys that maintained the noisy fan thingies that hung from
Willies wings. But we went to war. They didn'lt.

There were quite a number of RAF erks, particularly at Manston, who
would disagree with you.

But they can't. They died around the aircraft they were servicing.

Did Stansted get raided much?

Mike, don't forget that the erks at Manston and other RAF fields were
in greater danger years before Art arrived at Stansted than when he
was on his missions ...

WHAT!? You mean there was a war on *before* Art got personally involved???
That's what I get for tossing all of those "worthless books" in the trash
and relying solely upon Art for my military history... :-)

Brooks

In message , ArtKramr
writes
Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: Howard Berkowitz
Date: 8/25/2004 6:28 PM Pacific Standard Time
I think you are missing my point. Did your _flight_ crews select the
target and the munitions to be used? I think not. There were targeting
organizations that had to call on specialized skills, ranging from
vulnerability analysis to detailed photointerpretation to statistical
analysis of weapons effects. Yes, you were at the pointy end, but the
spear also has a staff.

How does any of that limit or make my combat observations less valid? In the
end the guys you are talking about did the easy work in an office. We did the
hard work as you put it on the pointy end of the spear.
And none of those guys you are refering to ever went down in flames or were
buried in foreign graves. Screw 'em all with their easy comfortable sheltered
lives and total
safety. While they were enjoying Martinis in London we were catching hell over
Germany and many of us never came back. Screw 'em all.

Well, thank you, Art. If I get sent to Basra ('support to operations'
isn't just a job title here), will you tell the insurgents that I'm down
for "easy comfortable sheltered life" and to make sure I come home
safely?


--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

writes

Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: Howard Berkowitz
Date: 8/25/2004 6:28 PM Pacific Standard Time
I think you are missing my point. Did your _flight_ crews select the
target and the munitions to be used? I think not. There were targeting
organizations that had to call on specialized skills, ranging from
vulnerability analysis to detailed photointerpretation to statistical
analysis of weapons effects. Yes, you were at the pointy end, but the
spear also has a staff.


How does any of that limit or make my combat observations less valid?
In the
end the guys you are talking about did the easy work in an office. We
did the
hard work as you put it on the pointy end of the spear.
And none of those guys you are refering to ever went down in flames or
were
buried in foreign graves. Screw 'em all with their easy comfortable
sheltered
lives and total
safety. While they were enjoying Martinis in London we were catching
hell over
Germany and many of us never came back. Screw 'em all.

You know it's been claimed that a lot of grunts look at the
"fly boys" as living a life of luxury. A mission ranging from
maybe a couple hours to perhaps as long as 8, much of which
won't actually have metal whizzing about your head, after which
you return to a base that is largely free of flying metal to
go sleep in a genuine bunk, more than likely with heat in the
room, and hot meals. Even a bar to wash down the day's disappointment
or success.

Not bad considering the grunt stuck out in a fox hole with cold
meals from a can when there is time to eat, or laying in a frozen
hole when there is time to sleep.

I'm a whimp compared with you, but perhaps you were a whimp compared
to some GI during the month of mid-Dec through mid-January and
beyond, in Luxembourg/France/Belgium during 1944, no?


SMH

Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: Stephen Harding
Date: 8/29/2004 6:30 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

writes

Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: Howard Berkowitz
Date: 8/25/2004 6:28 PM Pacific Standard Time
I think you are missing my point. Did your _flight_ crews select the
target and the munitions to be used? I think not. There were targeting
organizations that had to call on specialized skills, ranging from
vulnerability analysis to detailed photointerpretation to statistical
analysis of weapons effects. Yes, you were at the pointy end, but the
spear also has a staff.


How does any of that limit or make my combat observations less valid?
In the
end the guys you are talking about did the easy work in an office. We
did the
hard work as you put it on the pointy end of the spear.
And none of those guys you are refering to ever went down in flames or
were
buried in foreign graves. Screw 'em all with their easy comfortable
sheltered
lives and total
safety. While they were enjoying Martinis in London we were catching
hell over
Germany and many of us never came back. Screw 'em all.

You know it's been claimed that a lot of grunts look at the
"fly boys" as living a life of luxury. A mission ranging from
maybe a couple hours to perhaps as long as 8, much of which
won't actually have metal whizzing about your head, after which
you return to a base that is largely free of flying metal to
go sleep in a genuine bunk, more than likely with heat in the
room, and hot meals. Even a bar to wash down the day's disappointment
or success.

Not bad considering the grunt stuck out in a fox hole with cold
meals from a can when there is time to eat, or laying in a frozen
hole when there is time to sleep.

I'm a whimp compared with you, but perhaps you were a whimp compared
to some GI during the month of mid-Dec through mid-January and
beyond, in Luxembourg/France/Belgium during 1944, no?


SMH

During that period I was 10,000 feet over Bastogne bombing panzers to protect
our troops. But I take nothing away from the guys sitting in offices in Paris
and London during that battle. Screw em.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer