Turn coordinator? How dare they!

On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 11:14:14 AM UTC-5, Bill D wrote:

However, there is a difference between airplanes and gliders WRT the T&B. An airplane T&B displays a "standard rate turn" (2 minutes per 360 turn) as two needle widths. (Needle on the "doghouse" for the old guys.) That's 6 times too sensitive for a glider where the typical turn rate is 20 seconds per turn. Turns to a heading are much easier with an airplanes slow turn rate.

It's interesting to see how the TruTrak is marketed on the Cumulus website. He raises the "standard turn rate" issue.

http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/trutrak.htm

On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 3:46:37 PM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 11:14:14 AM UTC-5, Bill D wrote:



However, there is a difference between airplanes and gliders WRT the T&B. An airplane T&B displays a "standard rate turn" (2 minutes per 360 turn) as two needle widths. (Needle on the "doghouse" for the old guys.) That's 6 times too sensitive for a glider where the typical turn rate is 20 seconds per turn. Turns to a heading are much easier with an airplanes slow turn rate.



It's interesting to see how the TruTrak is marketed on the Cumulus website. He raises the "standard turn rate" issue.



http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/trutrak.htm

I'm probably wrong saying 6 times too sensitive. A 1 minute T&B is the traditional glider instrument. However, think how large a 1 minute turn would be in a glider.

Just to answer a couple of questions

Cloud flying is permitted in Regional and National competitions in the UK
as I type. This may change.
The most common scenario for getting caught above cloud is when wave
flying. I set a waypoint on the GPS away from the high ground, deploy full
airbrake and trim to 55kts. From then on you can sit back and enjoy the
ride. I know this works in wave conditions where the air is smooth. I have
used it to descend in clear air, never had to use it for real. Everytime I
have tried it the glider has started to gently spiral but remains stable
as long as you keep your hands and feet clear of the controls. There is
little turbulence to disturb the glider until you are below the wave,
normally this means you are clear of cloud as well.
The glider I used was an ASW17 with the double paddle airbrake mod. Flaps
at +1 or zero

I just don't have faith in it and the slip ball seems never to be centered.
Maybe I'm just out of practice... :-)


"Peter von Tresckow" wrote in message
...
"Dan Marotta" wrote:
Gyros are not disallowed except in competition (in the USA, at least). I
have a functional J-8 attitude indicator in my hangar but it's too heavy
and power hungry to install in my panel. Not to mention that I've
already stated my firm intention to stay out of clouds.

I'd be a lot happier with the attitude indicator than I am with the
TruTrak. I'm not at all impressed with it.


"Alan" wrote in message
...
In article
son_of_flubber writes:
"son_of_flubber" wrote in message
snip ...Why not equip gliders (with a turn and bank indicator) and
pilots
(with training) to safely handle a few minutes of cloud flying if it
is a
non-zero possibility

On Monday, February 25, 2013 10:50:52 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
That's a pretty naive question.

Pretty much ALL of my questions are naive due to my lack of much
experience and training. It's good for me to reminded of that from
time to time. Thanks for your answer.


I would agree and disagree with Dan about this. Obvious reasons
include expense (gyros are expensive), weight, and power.

The training would probably be a big deal as well -- the single
engine private pilot requirement is for 3 hours of flight training
in manuvering solely by reference to instruments. Even so, the
record of accidents after non-instrument rated pilots wander into
weather is not good.

I think that few would want to mandate these instruments be in
gliders.

On the other hand, I have read postings describing sudden rain
encounters that forced a pilot to suddenly and unexpectedly have
to fly by instrument reference, in conditions where visibility
had been substantial (perhaps 15 miles) a few instants before.
I can see where a running gyro instrument in the panel could be
a useful safety instrument for the glider pilot who was also an
instrument competent airplane pilot.

I would not want to see such be required, but it pains me to
see situations where such capability would be disallowed.

Alan

Dan just out of curiosity, what about the trutrack don't you like???

Pete

Maybe, just for kicks, I'll try that in my LAK-17a at the end of a wave
flight.


"Bill D" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:47:24 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
"Bill D" wrote in message

...

On Monday, February 25, 2013 5:04:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:



Way back when, I tried the "benign spiral" in my LS-6a. I found it to
be



dynamically unstable in pitch and, after a few cycles without touching

the



stick, it was ready to loop or break Vne.



Did you use full dive brakes?



To tell the truth, I don't recall - probably not. I think I used the

published (in Soaring) procedure but I don't remember if it called for
full

dive brakes.

My understanding of the "benign spiral" is the air brakes MUST be open to
stabilize the glider and prevent over speed.

At 00:20 27 February 2013, Dan Marotta wrote:
Maybe, just for kicks, I'll try that in my LAK-17a at the end of a wave
flight.


"Bill D" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:47:24 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
"Bill D" wrote in message

...

On Monday, February 25, 2013 5:04:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta
wrote:



Way back when, I tried the "benign spiral" in my LS-6a. I found it
to
be



dynamically unstable in pitch and, after a few cycles without
touching

the



stick, it was ready to loop or break Vne.



Did you use full dive brakes?



To tell the truth, I don't recall - probably not. I think I used the

published (in Soaring) procedure but I don't remember if it called for

full

dive brakes.

My understanding of the "benign spiral" is the air brakes MUST be open
to

stabilize the glider and prevent over speed.

A couple of years ago I was in a particulars UK comp called Enterprise I
was
enjoying the comp and making up the numbers and every one new Justin
Wills was going to win ,former world champion and he understands the
rules.
Could flying is permitted and I know Justin cloud flys because I watched
him
disappear above .Next day while grid squatting I made a point of looking at

Justin's panel ,no horizon but 2 turn and slip.
For the many non Brits Enterprise was set up 30 years or so ago as an
alternative to circuit racing ,the idea being to get as much out of the day
as is
possible and the following day Justin and the day winner do an extensive
debrief explaining the desitions they made both routing and met so we can
all
learn and make better desitions .I recommend looking at there web site and

you will be able to read the ethos more succinctly

I hate this spell checker.

So what's the etiquette for cloud flying in comps? So here we are, four of us climbing happily at 4 kts under a great big towering cu, no more than 150 vertical feet of separation total. Conditions are poor up ahead but with another 3 or 4 thousand feet we can all make it to the finish with good speed and no further climbing. The first guy disappears into the fog. Now what? Just curious.

T8

At 17:56 27 February 2013, Evan Ludeman wrote:
So what's the etiquette for cloud flying in comps? So here we are, four
of=
us climbing happily at 4 kts under a great big towering cu, no more than
1=
50 vertical feet of separation total. Conditions are poor up ahead but
wit=
h another 3 or 4 thousand feet we can all make it to the finish with good
s=
peed and no further climbing. The first guy disappears into the fog.
Now
=
what? Just curious.

T8


As you will know from my post I bottled,and it is a historic fact there
was a
mid air in cloud in a worlds back in the 60's I think David Innes was one
it
was re written in sailplane and gliding about 10 years ago .As I said
enterprise is some what different so there is less chance you will be
gaggle
flying .
Some one will explain I am sure but you need to announce you intentions
and position on the comp frequency and change to cloud frequency and re
transmit and if you have more courage than me wait till they call clear
then
off you go.
Plonckers need not apply ,I consider anyone without a ATPL a ploncker.

The UK procedure when cloud flying is not to enter from below if somebody else has climbed into it until there is at least 500 ft separation. Then each calls out altitude (amsl) periodically to maintain separation.

It seems to work. No collisions in cloud since this and other procedures were introduced.

FWIW, in my experience it is rare to be climbing in the same cloud as others anyway, but on the few occasions I have done it, it worked OK.

Chris N

On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 3:53:37 PM UTC-5, Chris Nicholas wrote:
The UK procedure when cloud flying is not to enter from below if somebody else has climbed into it until there is at least 500 ft separation. Then each calls out altitude (amsl) periodically to maintain separation. It seems to work. No collisions in cloud since this and other procedures were introduced. FWIW, in my experience it is rare to be climbing in the same cloud as others anyway, but on the few occasions I have done it, it worked OK. Chris N

How do you keep from getting hit by airplanes flying in the same cloud? Presumably IFR airplanes are flying in cloud.
Curious
UH