Soaring Community Consumer Warning

On Tuesday, April 9, 2013 9:18:02 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 9, 2013 8:18:01 AM UTC-5, Don Johnstone wrote:

If someone decides they want to sell something they probably want to sell



quickly for whatever reason. I recently wanted to sell my wifes car, I put



it on 3 different sites and it went within an hour of the advert appearing,



Gliders are not cars but the same principle applies, the greater the



exposure the greater the chance of selling. There are several free ad sites



in europe including www.gliderpilot.net in the UK. None of them require an



exclusive ad so not problem. If they did I would have to decide if I wanted



to restrict my advert to one site or have the ad on many sites excluding



one. That is a complete no brainer.



I suppose it could be said that there was only one site in the USA and no



prospect of any others but I suspect the ship has already sailed on that



assumption.



What I have taken from this thread is that there are several loyal



customers who will support W&W even if they are wrong and their loyalty



will not be shaken. I have to question if they are really actting in the



best interests of W&W or the soaring community in general. I would have



thought an early resolution to this thread was in everyones interest.



The past is done and cannot be undone but the future can be changed.



Clarity harms no-one.



Only W&W can put a stop to the speculation and it is difficult to



understand why that has not been done especially as the reputation of the



business has been damaged, with at least one potential customer, despite



the support given. Whatever the reasons for the silence it has to be said



that there is something very strange about the W&W business model if it



does not care what uncommitted and potential future customers might think.



Don,



As an immigrant to the US, let me try and give you some insights into the American psyche that I have gathered over the last 26 years. We value our individual rights immensely, you just don't tell us what to do. The following is pure speculation but here it goes:

I suspect that Tim really doesn't care if you think he has a strange business model or that his model is causing harm to him being more successful. He probably says with Rhett Butler: frankly my dear, I don't give a damn. He does what he does BECAUSE HE CAN. Heck, for all I know, he might be independently wealthy and not really need to do business or speak on the phone with people that annoy him. I say good on him, he has every right and the freedom to do as he pleases. Sean's and your repeated postings stating the same arguments over and over are likely of no consequence to him. Btw, we have a first amendment to our constitution that allows you to slander and insult anyone as you like, try that in the UK! You're welcome.
Herb,
Gettin a little of topic don't cha think? Thanks to Kev, PK6, Hank, Chip, and now you, we have gone from "Too nice to need a policy" to "Have a policy but it is secret" to your "Too stinking rich to care about policies". Im laughing too hard to type! On your post we need to replace Sean's violin music with the humming of the National Anthem.

At 15:18 09 April 2013, wrote:


Don,

As an immigrant to the US, let me try and give you some insights into the
A=
merican psyche that I have gathered over the last 26 years. We value our
i=
ndividual rights immensely, you just don't tell us what to do. The
followi=
ng is pure speculation but here it goes:
I suspect that Tim really doesn't care if you think he has a strange
busine=
ss model or that his model is causing harm to him being more successful.
H=
e probably says with Rhett Butler: frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.
H=
e does what he does BECAUSE HE CAN. Heck, for all I know, he might be
inde=
pendently wealthy and not really need to do business or speak on the
phone
=
with people that annoy him. I say good on him, he has every right and
the
=
freedom to do as he pleases. Sean's and your repeated postings stating
the=
same arguments over and over are likely of no consequence to him. Btw,
we=
have a first amendment to our constitution that allows you to slander
and
=
insult anyone as you like, try that in the UK! You're welcome.

Well that would explain a lot. If all USA businesses think like that it is
no wonder that your economy went down the toilet, and inter alia dragged
ours with it.

On Tuesday, April 9, 2013 7:47:19 PM UTC+2, Don Johnstone wrote:

Well that would explain a lot. If all USA businesses think like that it is

no wonder that your economy went down the toilet, and inter alia dragged

ours with it.



Well, as ours is apparently recovering pretty nicely, while Europe seems to be having some pretty serious banking issues and not doing so well (isn't irritating the Germans a bad idea, historically), perhaps our system, flawed as it is, isn't all that bad!

Plus we get to have fun, evil-looking toys that go bang! A lot!

Can we get back to gliding? Please?

Kirk
66

On Tuesday, April 9, 2013 9:18:02 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 9, 2013 8:18:01 AM UTC-5, Don Johnstone wrote:

If someone decides they want to sell something they probably want to sell



quickly for whatever reason. I recently wanted to sell my wifes car, I put



it on 3 different sites and it went within an hour of the advert appearing,



Gliders are not cars but the same principle applies, the greater the



exposure the greater the chance of selling. There are several free ad sites



in europe including www.gliderpilot.net in the UK. None of them require an



exclusive ad so not problem. If they did I would have to decide if I wanted



to restrict my advert to one site or have the ad on many sites excluding



one. That is a complete no brainer.



I suppose it could be said that there was only one site in the USA and no



prospect of any others but I suspect the ship has already sailed on that



assumption.



What I have taken from this thread is that there are several loyal



customers who will support W&W even if they are wrong and their loyalty



will not be shaken. I have to question if they are really actting in the



best interests of W&W or the soaring community in general. I would have



thought an early resolution to this thread was in everyones interest.



The past is done and cannot be undone but the future can be changed.



Clarity harms no-one.



Only W&W can put a stop to the speculation and it is difficult to



understand why that has not been done especially as the reputation of the



business has been damaged, with at least one potential customer, despite



the support given. Whatever the reasons for the silence it has to be said



that there is something very strange about the W&W business model if it



does not care what uncommitted and potential future customers might think.



Don,



As an immigrant to the US, let me try and give you some insights into the American psyche that I have gathered over the last 26 years. We value our individual rights immensely, you just don't tell us what to do. The following is pure speculation but here it goes:

I suspect that Tim really doesn't care if you think he has a strange business model or that his model is causing harm to him being more successful. He probably says with Rhett Butler: frankly my dear, I don't give a damn. He does what he does BECAUSE HE CAN. Heck, for all I know, he might be independently wealthy and not really need to do business or speak on the phone with people that annoy him. I say good on him, he has every right and the freedom to do as he pleases. Sean's and your repeated postings stating the same arguments over and over are likely of no consequence to him. Btw, we have a first amendment to our constitution that allows you to slander and insult anyone as you like, try that in the UK! You're welcome.
Herb,
If I were Tim right now I would cringe at some of the stuff you, Kev, Hank, PK6, and Chip have said on his behalf. Ive done business with Tim over the years and I have never known him not to "Give a damn". A business owner (And to a lesser degree a private individual) is bound buy certain laws and responsibilities whether he is charging for his services or not. Further, Its not hard to argue that these ads draw traffic to a commercial site which makes the relationship mutually beneficial. USA or elsewhere, Would common courtesy not dictate disclosure? Slander is not a Right guaranteed in this country. I am sorry you are so poorly educated to your own Constitution.

On Tuesday, April 9, 2013 12:45:52 PM UTC-6, kirk.stant wrote:



Plus we get to have fun, evil-looking toys that go bang! A lot!

Kirk

66
Kirk,
We also have one of the highest gun death and gun murder rates in the developed world. Considering this is the internet your threat rings a bit hollow. Duh.
Can we get back to gliding.

I have made the point.

I created the Facebook Sailplane Want Ads page --- (https://www.facebook.com/SailplaneForSaleWantAds) because I know that it will be useful to sellers and buyers who are familiar with Facebook. Maybe someone will want to buy it someday when its has this level of glider ads? Frankly, I am surprised all these product sales business's do not have more Social media focus in support of their websites.

I understand that W&W has been popular but if an exclusivity policy is being attempted "under the radar" there are some problems being experienced. Understandably, most rational people would deeply dislike the idea an entirely undisclosed exclusivity policy. I have learned of some interesting phone calls and emails with other "EX" w&w customers who experienced similar treatment. Bizarre really.

I imagine that we will remember this W&W CONSUMER WARNING THREAD and the fact that if such a policy exists, w&w has chosen to COMPLETELY OMIT any information of such a policy from the site. Very odd indeed.

--- SEE HERE --- http://www.wingsandwheels.com/wantads1.htm ----

Cold hard facts! After reading the complete w&w ad submission instructions at the top of this page, it would be very reasonable for anyone who submits an ad to w&w to conclude that NO SUCH EXCLUSIVITY POLICY EXISTS and that they are free to sell their glider in any and all ways possible. In fact, included in these w&w want ad instructions is the following statement: "As always, there is never any charge for the listing and Wings & Wheels does not request nor will accept any commission or compensation for this service.. I only ask that you please send notice when your sailplane, trailer, airplane or part has been sold or your wanted ad is no longer needed..." Why nothing about only posting your ad with W&W here? There must not be such a policy....?!?!

If anyone dealing with w&w experiences enforcement efforts of an undisclosed business policy from w&w, (rude phone call demanding other ads be removed or else, emails, nasty grams, etc) I enthusiastically invite them to share it here for us to discuss further. Consumers need to report this kind of thing. We still cannot be sure what the policy is. So many reports are in direct conflict with the sites own terms and conditions. And of course, we have not heard from Tim on any of these questions. Again, bizarre!

In terms of sailplane want ads "market share" I am guessing that an increasing number of sellers will choose to post on many popular sources vs only W&W (if this rumored & mysterious exclusivity policy continues to be reported) and as social networking sites continue to gain traction. Nobody likes being told after the fact that they must remove all other ads or be kicked of my site. How rude. How childish. When I look for gliders for sale I check all of the popular sites. I imagine everyone else does too. Nobody in their right mind would put all their eggs in W&W. It would be a very big risk (and increasing every day) to simply depend on W&W to sell your glider, in my opinion.

Note: All of the owners of these Want Ad sites are welcomed to post their customers ads on the new Facebook want ads page. You can have the link pull you back to your site. I could care less. Its all about making it easy for people to share (see: S-O-C-I-A-L) relevant want ads with friends and connect the right buyers with the seller. To have conversations about the ad, make comments, etc. The Facebook Want Ads page is entirely non discriminatory and welcomes any post. This includes W&W assuming no exclusivity policy exists moving forward of course ;-).

Au revoir-

On 9/04/2013 23:18, Don Johnstone wrote:
....snippage...
What I have taken from this thread is that there are several loyal
customers who will support W&W even if they are wrong and their loyalty
will not be shaken. I have to question if they are really actting in the
best interests of W&W or the soaring community in general.

Actually Don, in supporting Tim, I didn't give a damn about the soaring
community in general and I haven't any view whatever about his policy on
sales ads because I don't have a glider to sell. I simply saw a bully -
Sean - attacking somebody for no reason and I didn't like it. I have
had dealings with Tim and I'm not going to see him viciously and
unjustifiedly abused without coming to his defence.

Sean continues to do it. Most of his garbage is properly called abuse
or taunting. He is about the nastiest piece of work I've read on ras.

...I would have
thought an early resolution to this thread was in everyones interest.

All that's needed to 'resolve'; it is for Sean to stop his unprompted
attacks. His attacks appear several times a day whether anybody else
has written or not. They are entirely unprovoked. Tim Mara has no
relationship with Sean yet is continually attacked. For example, this
was the entire content of a post from Sean on April 6:

"Tim, oh Tim? Where are you? Still under your desk? What's your policy?"

Nobody can have a reasonable discussion with somebody who writes that
sort of elementary school taunting.

The past is done and cannot be undone but the future can be changed.
Clarity harms no-one.
Only W&W can put a stop to the speculation

No, Don. Nobody can stop Sean. He is quite obsessive in his behaviour.
His postings on this topic are obsessive: 5 on April 1st, 5 on 2nd, 9
on April 3rd, 3 on 5th, 4 on 6th, 7th and 9th and 3 on 8th April. He
began a glider sales page on Facebook simply to spite Tim Mara who he's
never even met. Any response from Tim will simply make it all begin
again. This is simply bullying and abuse from a mentally unbalanced
person and a response from Tim would just produce further attacks.

Look at the same obsessive and irrational behaviour with his endless
postings about attitude information being available during competitions.
He showed the same lack of a sense of proportion and lack of
self-control with his vast number of postings on that topic. Many of
them were only semi-coherent and a sentence or two of logical argument
was rapidly followed by large slabs of personal abuse of posters who he
decided were his 'enemy'. Even when nobody else responded, he continued
to gnaw at that issue like a dog returning to its vomit. On four
occasions he posted that he'd stop pursuing the issue but started it
again a few days later. He twice apologised for his over-the-top
language but each time he could not let it go and came back within a
week. The issue itself was quite trivial but Sean elevated it to World
War 3.

No, Don. Nobody can hold a reasonable conversation with Sean.

GC

On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 8:27:25 AM UTC-5, GC wrote:
On 9/04/2013 23:18, Don Johnstone wrote:

...snippage...

What I have taken from this thread is that there are several loyal

customers who will support W&W even if they are wrong and their loyalty

will not be shaken. I have to question if they are really actting in the

best interests of W&W or the soaring community in general.



Actually Don, in supporting Tim, I didn't give a damn about the soaring

community in general and I haven't any view whatever about his policy on

sales ads because I don't have a glider to sell. I simply saw a bully -

Sean - attacking somebody for no reason and I didn't like it. I have

had dealings with Tim and I'm not going to see him viciously and

unjustifiedly abused without coming to his defence.



Sean continues to do it. Most of his garbage is properly called abuse

or taunting. He is about the nastiest piece of work I've read on ras.



...I would have

thought an early resolution to this thread was in everyones interest.



All that's needed to 'resolve'; it is for Sean to stop his unprompted

attacks. His attacks appear several times a day whether anybody else

has written or not. They are entirely unprovoked. Tim Mara has no

relationship with Sean yet is continually attacked. For example, this

was the entire content of a post from Sean on April 6:



"Tim, oh Tim? Where are you? Still under your desk? What's your policy?"



Nobody can have a reasonable discussion with somebody who writes that

sort of elementary school taunting.



The past is done and cannot be undone but the future can be changed.

Clarity harms no-one.

Only W&W can put a stop to the speculation



No, Don. Nobody can stop Sean. He is quite obsessive in his behaviour.

His postings on this topic are obsessive: 5 on April 1st, 5 on 2nd, 9

on April 3rd, 3 on 5th, 4 on 6th, 7th and 9th and 3 on 8th April. He

began a glider sales page on Facebook simply to spite Tim Mara who he's

never even met. Any response from Tim will simply make it all begin

again. This is simply bullying and abuse from a mentally unbalanced

person and a response from Tim would just produce further attacks.



Look at the same obsessive and irrational behaviour with his endless

postings about attitude information being available during competitions.

He showed the same lack of a sense of proportion and lack of

self-control with his vast number of postings on that topic. Many of

them were only semi-coherent and a sentence or two of logical argument

was rapidly followed by large slabs of personal abuse of posters who he

decided were his 'enemy'. Even when nobody else responded, he continued

to gnaw at that issue like a dog returning to its vomit. On four

occasions he posted that he'd stop pursuing the issue but started it

again a few days later. He twice apologised for his over-the-top

language but each time he could not let it go and came back within a

week. The issue itself was quite trivial but Sean elevated it to World

War 3.



No, Don. Nobody can hold a reasonable conversation with Sean.



GC

Excellent analysis, GC, thanks. It becomes painful to read Sean's repeated outpourings that don't seem to have passed the natural filter most of us possess to limit personal attacks. Makes me yearn for Lennie the Lurker and his musings, Lennie was at least funny!

That's not why our economy is in the toilet, but this not the forum for that
discussion...


"Don Johnstone" wrote in message
...
At 15:18 09 April 2013, wrote:


Don,

As an immigrant to the US, let me try and give you some insights into the
A=
merican psyche that I have gathered over the last 26 years. We value our
i=
ndividual rights immensely, you just don't tell us what to do. The
followi=
ng is pure speculation but here it goes:
I suspect that Tim really doesn't care if you think he has a strange
busine=
ss model or that his model is causing harm to him being more successful.
H=
e probably says with Rhett Butler: frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.
H=
e does what he does BECAUSE HE CAN. Heck, for all I know, he might be
inde=
pendently wealthy and not really need to do business or speak on the
phone
=
with people that annoy him. I say good on him, he has every right and
the
=
freedom to do as he pleases. Sean's and your repeated postings stating
the=
same arguments over and over are likely of no consequence to him. Btw,
we=
have a first amendment to our constitution that allows you to slander
and
=
insult anyone as you like, try that in the UK! You're welcome.

Well that would explain a lot. If all USA businesses think like that it is
no wonder that your economy went down the toilet, and inter alia dragged
ours with it.

On Tuesday, April 9, 2013 12:45:52 PM UTC-6, kirk.stant wrote:

Plus we get to have fun, evil-looking toys that go bang! A lot!
Kirk

66

God Bless America! We also get to have one of the highest gun death and murder rates in the developed world.