No more "Left Downwind"?

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
oups.com...
We attended a safety seminar on Tuesday during which the FAA presenter
(who was otherwise outstanding) went over a list of unapproved radio
calls. (Number one being, of course, the despised and now-specifically
prohibited "Any other traffic please advise...")

To our surprise, he claimed that the common phraseology "Iowa City
Traffic, N56993 entering left downwind for Runway 25, Iowa City" is
incorrect. In short, he stated that you should say "Iowa City
Traffic, N56993 entering downwind for Runway 25, Iowa City", omitting
the word "left".

In his opinion (and, apparently, the FAA's), saying "left downwind" is
redundant, since everyone should know that the pattern is left (or
right, if appropriate) hand traffic. In high traffic areas, the FAA
thinks that omitting this single word will open the over-crowded unicom
frequencies so that other pilots can squeeze a word in.

Mary and I (and several other pilots) kept quiet during the
presentation, but strongly disagree with him on this topic. IMHO,
saying "left downwind" is clear, concise, and -- most importantly --
clarifies which side of the airport you're on. To assume that everyone
knows whether the pattern is left (or right) is, in my experience,
naive.

What do you guys think?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I admit that I don't presently fly. That said, to put it politely, I think
the guy is foolish.

BTW; those Safety Seminars, which normally also qualify for the Wings
Program, are normally hosted by an FAA Safety Program Manager who is a very
accomplished pilot and who scheduled the event and is responsible for it,
and who's name appeared on the advance notice of the seminar. However, due
to various circumstances, the seminar may actually be hosted by another
pilot who the Safety Program Manager believes can handle the task.

I would give the Safety Program Manager a call, or alternatively chat with
him at the next event where he is present, and make him aware of your
concern...

Peter

The FAA guy had his thumb up his ass. At small uncontrolled field, pretty
much the ONLY thing the FAA can ding you on (besides the beloved "careless
and reckless") is the part 91 rule that, absent official information to the
contrary (i.e. indicated on the segmented circle, published in the AFD,
notamed, etc.) traffic is LEFT.

And how many of us can monitor our home unicom any given weekend and hear
some bumbling fool announce that (s)he is RIGHT downwind for the active?
Almost everybody. And the bumbler is guided, ever so gently (GET A CLUE,
LARDASS, WE'RE LEFT TRAFFIC) into the path of part 91 righteousness.

When I moved to GOO (nee 017) in '75, we too were on 122.8 and it was squeal
city. When the FAA opened up 123.0, three of us in the area moved over and
the squeal was cut by two-thirds. Then with firefighting activity in the
summer at two of those airports who were on 123.0 (Columbia and Grass
Valley) the leftover squeal became critical. So we did a listening watch on
the newly allocated unicom frequencies (google 47 CFR 87.217) on 122.7,
122.72, 122.8, 122.97, 123.0, 123.05, and 123.07 and picked 122.725 as the
least congested of the channels. I haven't heard squeal in two years, and we
are high enough to pick up the Sacramento, Oakland, and San Francisco areas.

Oh, but you love little 122.8 because that's what you grew up with and
learned as a student pilot and it is just too hard to leave? Learn to love
squeal.


Jim



"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
oups.com...


In his opinion (and, apparently, the FAA's), saying "left downwind" is
redundant, since everyone should know that the pattern is left (or
right, if appropriate) hand traffic. In high traffic areas, the FAA
thinks that omitting this single word will open the over-crowded unicom
frequencies so that other pilots can squeeze a word in.

In article .com,
"Jay Honeck" wrote:

We attended a safety seminar on Tuesday during which the FAA presenter
(who was otherwise outstanding) went over a list of unapproved radio
calls. (Number one being, of course, the despised and now-specifically
prohibited "Any other traffic please advise...")

To our surprise, he claimed that the common phraseology "Iowa City
Traffic, N56993 entering left downwind for Runway 25, Iowa City" is
incorrect. In short, he stated that you should say "Iowa City
Traffic, N56993 entering downwind for Runway 25, Iowa City", omitting
the word "left".

In his opinion (and, apparently, the FAA's), saying "left downwind" is
redundant, since everyone should know that the pattern is left (or
right, if appropriate) hand traffic. In high traffic areas, the FAA
thinks that omitting this single word will open the over-crowded unicom
frequencies so that other pilots can squeeze a word in.

Mary and I (and several other pilots) kept quiet during the
presentation, but strongly disagree with him on this topic. IMHO,
saying "left downwind" is clear, concise, and -- most importantly --
clarifies which side of the airport you're on. To assume that everyone
knows whether the pattern is left (or right) is, in my experience,
naive.

What do you guys think?

It's a terrible idea.

Some airports have both left and right patterns operating simultaneously
for the same runway as part of their normal operations.

Even if the standard pattern is always either left or right, that's no
guarantee that everyone will be flying the standard pattern. Someone
might not know what the standard pattern is, or they might forget, or
they might decide not to fly it because of prevailing conditions.

Also, even if it is redundant, redundancy is not necessarily a bad thing
in aviation.

Finally, I think that the idea that omitting "left" and "right" will
free up significant time on the comm. frequency is questionable at best.

rg

It just goes to show the FAA doesn't always know or teach safety. At
several airports here in the NW there is parachute jumping and these
guys use the other side for downwind. So do helicopters.

If the FAA were ACTUALLY interested in safety they would lobby for more
frequencies to be opened up for unicom. Their story that there aren't
enough frequencies to go around is just pure nonsense.

Karl
"Curator" N185KG


Jay Honeck wrote:
We attended a safety seminar on Tuesday during which the FAA presenter
(who was otherwise outstanding) went over a list of unapproved radio
calls. (Number one being, of course, the despised and now-specifically
prohibited "Any other traffic please advise...")

To our surprise, he claimed that the common phraseology "Iowa City
Traffic, N56993 entering left downwind for Runway 25, Iowa City" is
incorrect. In short, he stated that you should say "Iowa City
Traffic, N56993 entering downwind for Runway 25, Iowa City", omitting
the word "left".

In his opinion (and, apparently, the FAA's), saying "left downwind" is
redundant, since everyone should know that the pattern is left (or
right, if appropriate) hand traffic. In high traffic areas, the FAA
thinks that omitting this single word will open the over-crowded unicom
frequencies so that other pilots can squeeze a word in.

Mary and I (and several other pilots) kept quiet during the
presentation, but strongly disagree with him on this topic. IMHO,
saying "left downwind" is clear, concise, and -- most importantly --
clarifies which side of the airport you're on. To assume that everyone
knows whether the pattern is left (or right) is, in my experience,
naive.

What do you guys think?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

IMHO, saying "left downwind" is clear, concise, and -- most
importantly --

Jay:

There is a larger issue here. If you buy into the idea that we should
minimize the length of our transmissions, the only means to do this is
to track down each unnecessary word and eliminate it. Each word by
itself is almost insignificant, but if you let this consideration sway
you, you would end up eliminating nothing.

Similar to when you're dieting. When confronted with a Twinkie, it's
easy to say "It's only 200 calories", but when you give in on this
Twinkie, you're likely to give in on them all.

So I say eliminate the "left/right" thing as an exercise of
self-discipline.

What I would most like to see eliminated, however, is "Uhm." Most
people slip about four of these into every transmission. "Podunk
Traffic, uhm, Cessna 1234X, uhm, left downwind, uhm, 36, uhm, Podunk."

If you buy into the idea that we should
minimize the length of our transmissions...

I don't buy into that idea at all. Transmissions should be an
appropriate length for the subject matter being transmitted. The
subject matter should be appropriate to transmit.

Properly done, redundancy adds to safety.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Properly done, redundancy adds to safety.

We're talking about useless information, not redundancy, even though I
suppose that's a form of useless information. Many people feel that
their transmissions are "appropriate length" yet others are
exasperated that the guy is tying up the frequency with irrelevant
details.

Since our goal in communications is usually to provide others with
information they need, they're logically the best ones to determine
whether or not our transmissions are "appropriate length." The AIM is
a good starting point and it emphasizes brevity and I suspect most
pilots value that as well.

Here are the steps I find useful:

1) Think about what you're going to say
2) Remove the noise words
3) Delete details the listener doesn't care about
4) Substitute standard phraseology
5) Press the PTT
6) Say it
7) Release the PTT

Granted, I don't go through all those steps on every transmissions,
but I do this analysis with students to help them communicate more
clearly. Over time, it becomes automatic.

Those pilots who say what needs to be said, no more, no less, are
wonderful to listen to.

We're talking about useless information, not redundancy, even though I
suppose that's a form of useless information.

We're talking about "left" or "right". This is not useless information.
It is extremely useful information. The assumption being made (by the
FAA) is that other pilots will already have that information, making it
redundant. I claim many pilots =don't= have the information, and thus
the redundancy is useful too.

I do not consider "left" or "right" to be noise words in this context.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jay Honeck wrote:


What do you guys think?
--

I think you and mary have a healthy attitude toward safety. Dont change.

Dave

Recently, Jay Honeck posted:

We attended a safety seminar on Tuesday during which the FAA presenter
(who was otherwise outstanding) went over a list of unapproved radio
calls. (Number one being, of course, the despised and
now-specifically prohibited "Any other traffic please advise...")

To our surprise, he claimed that the common phraseology "Iowa City
Traffic, N56993 entering left downwind for Runway 25, Iowa City" is
incorrect. In short, he stated that you should say "Iowa City
Traffic, N56993 entering downwind for Runway 25, Iowa City", omitting
the word "left".

In his opinion (and, apparently, the FAA's), saying "left downwind" is
redundant, since everyone should know that the pattern is left (or
right, if appropriate) hand traffic. In high traffic areas, the FAA
thinks that omitting this single word will open the over-crowded
unicom frequencies so that other pilots can squeeze a word in.

Mary and I (and several other pilots) kept quiet during the
presentation, but strongly disagree with him on this topic. IMHO,
saying "left downwind" is clear, concise, and -- most importantly --
clarifies which side of the airport you're on. To assume that
everyone knows whether the pattern is left (or right) is, in my
experience, naive.

What do you guys think?

At one of the uncontrolled airports I use helos regularly fly the pattern
opposite the fixed wing traffic. Also, bizjets do most anything they want.
When I'm in the pattern, I really appreciate knowing which way to look
without having to guess or hunt. There are better things to concentratate
on when preparing to land. Apparently, the FAA's "verbal efficiency
experts" are running out of things to do.

Neil