Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

During that period I was 10,000 feet over Bastogne bombing panzers to
protect
our troops. But I take nothing away from the guys sitting in offices in
Paris
and London during that battle. Screw em.


I suppose it depends on what you consider the offices, say, in Bletchley
Park. In particular, it's interesting to compare the incidence of combat
PTSD and the very real high incidence of severe mental illness among
COMINT analysts.

Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: Howard Berkowitz
Date: 8/29/2004 10:27 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

During that period I was 10,000 feet over Bastogne bombing panzers to
protect
our troops. But I take nothing away from the guys sitting in offices in
Paris
and London during that battle. Screw em.


I suppose it depends on what you consider the offices, say, in Bletchley
Park. In particular, it's interesting to compare the incidence of combat
PTSD and the very real high incidence of severe mental illness among
COMINT analysts.



Bletchley Park was neither in London or Paris.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: Howard Berkowitz
Date: 8/29/2004 10:27 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

During that period I was 10,000 feet over Bastogne bombing panzers to
protect
our troops. But I take nothing away from the guys sitting in offices
in
Paris
and London during that battle. Screw em.


I suppose it depends on what you consider the offices, say, in Bletchley
Park. In particular, it's interesting to compare the incidence of combat
PTSD and the very real high incidence of severe mental illness among
COMINT analysts.



Bletchley Park was neither in London or Paris.


Exactly. And, for that matter, some of those in London or Paris may
have sipped a martini and STILL made major contributions. The London
Controlling Section comes to mind, as does the XX Committee and its US
counterparts. The ASW Research Group had considerable influence on
bomber effectiveness and survival.

Whether you intend it or not, however, you seem to lump everyone who was
not combat aircrew into an inferior category, even when their particular
contribution to the war effort could be stressful and dangerous. I have
no problem with your saying that combat aircrew form one specific band
of brothers. I do have a problem with your denying that any other band
of brothers could exist or have meaning, or make any meaningful
contribution.

During the Battle of the Atlantic, merchant sailors, at times, had
casualties as bad as yours. As I have mentioned, COMINT analysts could
be shattered mentally by their efforts. William F. Friedman, in my firm
opinion, made contributions to winning the war as much as anyone that
can be named -- even though his peak efforts and breakdown came just
before the start of war.

People like Louis Slotin and Harry Daghlian died as or more horribly
than any combat crewmen, as a result of laboratory accidents.

Had it not been for some people in offices, like Constance
Babington-Smith, you might not have known the appropriate targets.
Perhaps their work wasn't as glamorous and warrior-like, but it was
equally important.

If you have not read it, I suggest John Keegan's _Mask of Command_.
There are certain personalities and skills needed in different positions
and different eras. Alexander the Great was a fantastic leader for his
milieu, but his style would have gotten you killed very quickly if he
led bomber missions.

"ArtKramr" wrote

During that period I was 10,000 feet over Bastogne bombing panzers to protect
our troops. But I take nothing away from the guys sitting in offices in Paris
and London during that battle. Screw em.

and I thought Kerry was the biggest braggart. You take the cake.

We're going to have to start calling you Miles Gloriosus!

http://www.rogerlsimon.com/mt-archiv...raggart_so.php
Miles: I, Miles Gloriosus,
I, slaughterer of thousands,
I, oppressor of the meek,
Subduer of the weak,
Degrader of the Greek,
Destroyer of the Turk,
Must hurry back to work.

I, in war the most admired,
In wit the most inspired,
In love the most desired,
In dress the best displayed --
I am a parade.

Soldiers: Look at those eyes, cunning and keen,
Look at the size of those thighs, like a mighty machine.

Miles: My bride!
My bride!
Inform my lucky bride:
The fabled arms of
Miles are open wide.
Make haste!
Make haste!
I have no time to waste:
There are shrines I should be sacking,
Ribs I should be cracking,
Eyes to gouge and bounty to divide,
Bring me my bride!

Howard Berkowitz wrote:

I suppose it depends on what you consider the offices, say, in Bletchley
Park. In particular, it's interesting to compare the incidence of combat
PTSD and the very real high incidence of severe mental illness among
COMINT analysts.

Some may say it goes with the territory.


Jack

Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: Howard Berkowitz

If you have not read it, I suggest John Keegan's _Mask of Command_.
There are certain pers

Keegan was never in combat nor was he in command of anything. And while writing
the above book he was never even even wounded. But he got rich writing it.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In article , Jack
wrote:

Howard Berkowitz wrote:

I suppose it depends on what you consider the offices, say, in
Bletchley
Park. In particular, it's interesting to compare the incidence of
combat
PTSD and the very real high incidence of severe mental illness among
COMINT analysts.

Some may say it goes with the territory.


Jack

In both cases, that's probably quite correct.

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: Howard Berkowitz

If you have not read it, I suggest John Keegan's _Mask of Command_.
There are certain pers

Keegan was never in combat nor was he in command of anything. And while
writing
the above book he was never even even wounded. But he got rich writing
it.


Art, I respect many things you have done. But you are a bigot when it
comes to combat -- and indeed you've criticized the combat experience of
other than bombat crews.

How do you know Keegan is rich? He is a respected scholar, true.

Hap Arnold was incompetent because he never was in combat. Yes or no?
No qualifying remarks as long as you insist on the binary distinction --
can't comment meaningfully on things one has not experienced. Of
course, you didn't experience senior command, so you can't judge who was
and was not competent. Sort of circular logic there, hmmmm?

I have several obstetrics and gynecology textbooks written by men. By
your logic, they have to go.

We'd better get rid of most 20th century books on the American Civil
War, and certainly on wars before then. Or is it that combat in any war
makes you an authority on any other? Indeed might be interesting to have
David Hackworth write the authoritative book on the Macedonian phalanx,
eh?

Most of the psychiatry library has to go, because relatively few
psychiatrists are psychotic.

I'm not sure if there's anyone that got into the NFL Hall of Fame as
both a player and coach. Some Hall of Fame coaches never personally put
a foot on a pro field, wearing pads. Guess they don't know what they are
talking about, either.

Howard Berkowitz wrote re Art Kramer:

Some Hall of Fame coaches never personally put
a foot on a pro field, wearing pads. Guess they don't know what they are
talking about, either.

Why are we bothering?

Surely the degree to which we continue to attempt to rehabilitate Art
indicates how great is the loss we feel in his continuing slide. I
encourage everyone to ignore the irrational, and to address an issue
without responding specifically to the source.

The NG seems to have lost many of its non-US contributors, except for an
occasional nut-case drawn insect-like to the odor of pointless
contention, and a few stalwarts with iron stomachs who love the subject
too well. I will be glad when the US election is over, whatever the
outcome [though I have my preferences, of course].

Chin up, it won't be long now.


Jack

In article , Jack
wrote:

Howard Berkowitz wrote re Art Kramer:

Some Hall of Fame coaches never personally put
a foot on a pro field, wearing pads. Guess they don't know what they
are
talking about, either.

Why are we bothering?

Surely the degree to which we continue to attempt to rehabilitate Art
indicates how great is the loss we feel in his continuing slide. I
encourage everyone to ignore the irrational, and to address an issue
without responding specifically to the source.

For me, it is one of sadness, because Art does have great and meaningful
memories, of direct experience that are worth commemorating. When I
found out that in later life, he was a photography writer from whom I
learned much, I wanted even more to listen.

Sadly, I only wish that he understood that his own experiences will gain
a respectful ear, without the need to trash anyone who didn't do the
same thing.