CBS "News" strikes AGAIN

Margy's posts echo everything my wife -- a dedicated public school
teacher -- has said about Montessori schools, teaching methods, etc. And my
wife's not even a pilot.

Henry

"Margy Natalie" wrote in message
...


Tom Sixkiller wrote:

"Dude" wrote in message
...
I figured you would want to throw parents who wouldn't pay for their
kids
education into jail. Looks like it was a bad guess.

People would educate their kids that same way the feed them, cloth them,
care for their health..the same way they do those things for them now.
If
they fail to do those things now, we call it...what?

There are LOTS of parents who don't feed, cloth and care for their
children. At
least these kids get 2 meals a day and a safe place to go for 6.5 hours a
day.
It's called PUBLIC SCHOOL.

Margy





"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

"Dude" wrote in message
...
Tom,

Making the parents more involved by making them pay would be
great,
but
I
am
not gonna hold my breath. Also, I am not sure that the end result
would
be
a net improvement. Many parents are such numbskulls that the kids
may
end
up getting even less education.

I know what you are thinking, but there is not room in the jails
for
all
the
parents who fit this bill.

Jail? How does that fit?

So, I will agree with you in theory, but have to
disagree in what is practical (at least until congress is taken
over
by
libertarians).

Until the majority of people change between their ears, nothing is
going
to
change/improve _politically_.
As long as the notion of public schools is predominnt, it will
continue
its
course.

"You can't change a country through the politcal process; you can
only
change people's point-of-view (ie, political views/outlook).



OUT


"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

"Dude" wrote in message
...
Teachers I have talked too care less about the money and more
about
the
fact
that they have ZERO control in the classroom. The students
have a
right
to
do whatever they please wthout recourse. Only the best leaders
are
capable
of controlling a classroom through force of personality.
Enough
of
those
people might be recruited with lots more money, but maybe not.

The quicker solution is to either bring back corporal
punishment
and

expulsions, or go with vouchers that will allow a free market
to
separate
the children of idiots from the children of responsible
parents.

Right there you hit the nail on the head...kinda.

If parents had to pay for their kids education out of THEIR
pocket,
instead
of their neighbors, damn sure they would pay attention to their
kids
learning and behavior. Ain't going to happen in tax funded
schools.

"Margy Natalie" wrote in message
...


Tom Sixkiller wrote:

"Dude" wrote in message
...
I figured you would want to throw parents who wouldn't pay for their
kids
education into jail. Looks like it was a bad guess.

People would educate their kids that same way the feed them, cloth
them,
care for their health..the same way they do those things for them now.
If
they fail to do those things now, we call it...what?

There are LOTS of parents who don't feed, cloth and care for their
children. At
least these kids get 2 meals a day and a safe place to go for 6.5 hours
a
day.
It's called PUBLIC SCHOOL.


It's better termed "Public Day Care"...right up to age 18. In the mean time,
those there to LEARN are putting up with the encumbrance.


If people want "day care", have romper rooms all over the place, but don't
make schools a daytime babysitter, to augment the evening babysitter...that
being the "Boob Tube".

Notice how the situation continues to deteriorate in parallel with the level
of parental responsibility. No amount of cash will solve it.

Margy,

I must challenge this statement:

"Contray to the uninformed opinion of other posters teachers really do study
how
minds work."

I was with you all the way until I got to this one. Either your positive
attitude, or an unusually positive series of coincidences has shaded your
judgement on the interest in childrens' minds held by many teachers today.
I am not uninformed. A close personal friend of mine is a public school
teacher, and I attended several public and private schools. Unlike many
people, I have a good memory of what transpired.

While perhaps not a majority, many teachers have quit caring enough. I
don't necessarily blame it on the teachers, but I do blame them for not
quitting. That's right, stop whining and vote with your feet. Too many
teachers today are simply filling the job because they feel helpless, or no
longer care, but for various reasons do not quit.

Parents, administrators, and union hacks will not get together on this
problem until the teachers stop talking and act. If a teacher has stopped
being a student of the art of educating children, they should not be in the
classroom (just like pilots who have stopped learning are dangerous in the
cockpit).

I suppose that your experience with such a gifted child has led you to have
better teachers. Teaching the bright kids takes more energy and talent than
many of today's teachers have.


"Margy Natalie" wrote in message
...


Judah wrote:

My kids are just starting in school. My son is in 3rd grade and my
daughter
will start Kindergarden next fall.

Please advise on how I can ensure that my children grasp the knowledge
presented to them.

Ask higher order questions on Blooms Taxonomy (analysis and synthesis
questions) about the material they are presented. They need to know the
who,
what, when , but the why and how shows understanding.

Don't push abstract concepts on young children!! Earlier is not better!
Read
some Piaget. Don't teach little kids algebra (my 140 + IQ daughter
struggled
through algebra in 7th grade and would have done fine in 8th. Even though
she's good in math (A in second semester Calculus as a first semester
freshman
at Penn State) she's not confident in math because of that experience.

Due to the pressures of standarized testing students get more information
and
less time to work on basics. Make reading and writing fun and practice at
home. Have your kids write the grocery list and do the grocery shopping.
Have
them estimate what the total bill will be as they go through the store.
Have
them play imaginitive games not on the computer. Make sure they play
outside,
turn part of the yard into Mars or something and they can build vehicles
to
explore. Ask them to write down what they do "on Mars" for you to read
when
you get home from work. Write notes to your kids to convey information.
"
I'll be home at 6:00 and then we can go to the store".

Contray to the uninformed opinion of other posters teachers really do
study how
minds work. Make sure your kids DO when they are learning. Lecture
format has
a 5% retention rate whereas adding a simple write it down increases it to
30%.
The more interactive the learning the higher the retention. For kids who
have
a tough time spelling marching the words out to a tune really helps. Also
make
sure your kids drink enough water as brain research has shown that
dehydrated
brains don't absorb knowledge (most schools now allow the kids to carry
water
bottles if they are clear plastic).

Margy



Thanks.

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in
:


"Michael Houghton" wrote in message
...
snip
Well, if in sending my kids to public schools all these years (they're
all in or past college now) I'd seen even ONE that comprehended HOW
the
young minds grasps knowledge I'd say "most". That's not been me
experience.


I won't deny that there are a significant number of teachers whose
ability to teach is questionable, but many teachers actually give a
damn about their students, doing their best to *teach*. Oh, and "rote
learning" is not so nearly ubiquitous as you would claim.

"Giving a damn" is completely worthless if they don't know _HOW_ it
works.

Your tirade is so full of manure that it is laughable -- or would be
if you weren't expressing a range of opinions that are painfully
common.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about.


yours,
Michael



Best,

Tom

Margy,

What kind of district do you teach in. I live in an urban environment where
the school district is notoriously disrespected (likely becuase they do
little other than trying to manipulate their test scores to show improvement
by teaching the tests, picking who does and doesn't take the test using
threats, lying about the actual results, and outright changing answers on
the kids' tests).


"Margy Natalie" wrote in message
...


Dude wrote:

Teachers I have talked too care less about the money and more about the
fact
that they have ZERO control in the classroom. The students have a right
to
do whatever they please wthout recourse. Only the best leaders are
capable
of controlling a classroom through force of personality. Enough of
those
people might be recruited with lots more money, but maybe not.

The quicker solution is to either bring back corporal punishment and
expulsions, or go with vouchers that will allow a free market to
separate
the children of idiots from the children of responsible parents.

I don't think corporal punishment is the answer. I'm lucky enough to work
in a
building where I can have control in my classroom (and I specialize in
emotionally disturbed students!!). We do need strict and enforced rules
in
schools. We also need teachers who respect their students as individuals
and
parents who expect their children to respect teachers as individuals.
(also
parents who expect children to respect parents!). I've seen way too many
children who are in control of their houses.

Margy



"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

"Judah" wrote in message
...
"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in
:


"Jordan" wrote in message
...

If we have to have celebrity endorsement, then our nation is too
brain
dead to endure and is finished.

That's what happens when teachers make minimum wage, and celebrities
make
$100,000 an episode...

Teachers hardly make minimun wage. Even if we paid them $100K, they
don't
know _how_ to teach (besides being beholden to the unions). Further,
even
those who LOVE to teach, still miss HOW the human mind learns and
grasps
information in the form of concepts. That's why most all of
"education" is
now BY ROTE.

"Dude" wrote in message
...
Margy,

I must challenge this statement:

"Contray to the uninformed opinion of other posters teachers really do
study
how
minds work."

I was with you all the way until I got to this one. Either your positive
attitude, or an unusually positive series of coincidences has shaded your
judgement on the interest in childrens' minds held by many teachers today.
I am not uninformed. A close personal friend of mine is a public school
teacher, and I attended several public and private schools. Unlike many
people, I have a good memory of what transpired.

Here's a question you might ask any teacher, particularly at the elementary
school level:

Differentiate the "Look-Say" and "Phonetic" methods of teaching reading. Why
is one method better than the other?

It's rather amazing (at least in my experience) how many CAN'T explain it
and how many current teachers really can't fathom why the look-say method is
an abject failure.

Margy,

I would be highly interested in your opinion on school choice and vouchers.

As a diehard capitalist, I can find no better solution that will both
increase teacher pay and improve education.


"Margy Natalie" wrote in message
...


"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:

Judah wrote:

That's what happens when teachers make minimum wage, and celebrities
make
$100,000 an episode...

Well, teachers haven't made that little in a LLLOOONNNGGG time! Around
here, the
going rate is around 50K for substitutes and over 70K to start for
regulars. By
comparison, starting pay for a software developer with an MS is about
50K.

According to salary.com the median pay for a teacher in New Brunswick, NJ
is $51,
927 with the 25th percentile salary at $41,143. I think this is probably
much
closer to reality. NO schools start at 70K and many top out below that.
Somerset
High School is about $2,000 lower and NYC about $2,000 higher.
Substitutes in
Fairfax County, VA get $10 an hour. Subs are almost always hired by the
hour with
no benefits. A starting teacher in Fairfax County gets $35,813 and 7% of
that comes
off the top to pay for pension (yes, we pay our own). Fairfax is
considered a "good
paying" district in a very expensive area. 40 miles west of here the pay
drops
almost $10,000 a year.
http://www.fcps.edu/DHR/salary/scalepdfs/04tchr195.pdf
shows more realistic teacher salaries.
Margy





George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually
said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

"Dude" wrote in message
...
Margy,

I would be highly interested in your opinion on school choice and
vouchers.

As a diehard capitalist, I can find no better solution that will both
increase teacher pay and improve education.

I am interested in how you think it will increase pay and improve the
schools.

First of all, who will take advantage of the voucher program? They will
have to pay more than the voucher will cover, so it will be the parent with
more disposable income, and cares what kind of education they are getting.
It is this child that will do well in school, because the correlation
between parent's involvement, and student achievement, is very high. What
will be left in the public schools? More problem cases with less
achievement. How is that improving the school, or increasing pay.

It is also interesting to note that private school pay is lower than public
school pay.

OK, so your argument is what? I would love to have the golden BB for all of
education's problems, but I don't see it here.
--
Jim in NC

I am really tired of hearing this response to vouchers and choice.

First of all, any objection based on the fact that the public schools will
be worse off has no value whatsoever. The goal is a better education for
our children, not maintaining a public school system at the expense of their
education. If the public school system is or is not a part of the best
solution does not matter to anyone except those who fear they may not be
able to compete in a free market.

Also, those who have swallowed your logic are guilty of single step
thinking. You point out a plausible outcome based on a market reaction, and
then pretend that the result will either continue to trend in that
direction, or reach a static state. Markets involving people don't work
that way.

Let's say that all the "best students" leave the public schools and go to
private schools. So what? What students are left, and what is the result?

All of these issues can easily be addressed if you drop the requirement to
save programs and interest groups, and concentrate on setting up a system
that will best serve the students and society. Maybe you just don't believe
in free markets? If you do, then tell us what you think needs to be
addressed to get your support for a voucher system. Just remember - only
the kids count!

I am not saying that vouchers are a golden BB. I am saying that free market
systems out perform master planned systems almost everytime they are tried.
Its a pretty solid argument.

In case you want them, here are some specific responses to your points -


I am interested in how you think it will increase pay and improve the
schools.

Free markets reward talent and attract capital. The better teachers will
gravitate towards the better jobs, which will be able to afford higher pay
because they are more popular with the parents and are more economically
efficient.


First of all, who will take advantage of the voucher program?

Everyone, if its really a choice. In a real voucher program - everyone
gets a voucher that they take to the school of their choice.

They will
have to pay more than the voucher will cover, so it will be the parent
with
more disposable income, and cares what kind of education they are getting.
It is this child that will do well in school, because the correlation
between parent's involvement, and student achievement, is very high.

First, as more private groups start schools, price competition will bring
tuition down. Yes, some schools will charge more, and wealthier kids will
have advantages, as they do now. However, you seem to think that poorer
parents are less involved because they are poorer? huh? Thats like saying
the wealthier pilots who buy bigger faster planes are better pilots - which
is crap. The more involved parents WILL be better consumers, and their
children will have advantages as well. What is wrong with this? They have
advantages now.

What
will be left in the public schools? More problem cases with less
achievement. How is that improving the school, or increasing pay.


This is not the part that increases pay, and once again you are worried
about the school, not the kids in it.

Assuming your prediction is accurate (if you can predict the stock market as
well, please send us your tips), we have a more homogenous group of kids
with similar problems that we can focus on in schools that will become more
capable of helping them. In fact, some schools could become known for their
ability to help these children and be sought out for that value by parents.
As for achievement, why do we care where the achievement is? What we want
is more achievement in general, whether their is more or less in any
particular type of school is not the goal. If the public schools become
known for low achievement, they will lose their students and disappear. So
what? If the students are all being educated elsewhere there is no
consequence to the students. I doubt this will be the result because their
ARE good, popular, public schools.

It is also interesting to note that private school pay is lower than
public
school pay.

An indictment of the public school system if there ever was one. However,
even if I cede your point and agree that teachers will be making less money
(which I do not believe will be the result), then so what? Once again, its
the students that count. I believe I can explain this phenomenon if you
insist.

Free markets work!

Morgans wrote:

How is that improving the school, or increasing pay.

I have no interest in improving the school. I have a lot of interest in improving
the student. Vouchers will allow people who have decent kids to get them into good
schools that they can't afford now. That gets them a better education, and they
can make the most of it. The kids that remain in the public schools won't be any
worse off than they are now.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

"Dude" wrote

Free markets work!

You don't get it. Education is not a free market. If it was, we would fire
the students that did not keep up, or were habitually tardy, or had drug
problems, or a hundred more things.

We try teach everyone the same thing. Until we change that, we are destined
to fail.

I take you are not a teacher, or have ever been one, or have been closely
involved in the classroom. I can only say again, you just don't get it.
--
Jim in NC