Class B busted...My problem or the controller's ?

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
...

Not always. Taxi clearances don't (AIM 4-3-18a5).


Nor do they provide separation.



Also, once you've been cleared into Class B, don't subsequent vectors or
altitude assignments constitute clearances, even though they don't say
"cleared"?


Just as they do on IFR clearances.



If you're getting flight following and a Class B approach controller tells
you to fly a heading and altitude which would in fact take you into the
Class B, would that constitute a clearance?


It isn't proper for a Class B approach controller to issue a heading or
altitude to a VFR aircraft outside of Class B airspace.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...

It isn't proper for a Class B approach controller to issue a heading or
altitude to a VFR aircraft outside of Class B airspace.

Ok, let's try a different scenario then. Suppose you're talking to the Class
B tower and you're just outside the Class B surface area (and below the
remaining Class B). You want to land, and the tower says "follow the Arrow
on five-mile final, runway 31". Doing so would take you into the Class B,
but the controller didn't say "cleared". Is that still a clearance into
Class B? I assume not, but I don't see anything in the FARs or the AIM
saying that a clearance (except for taxi clearances) must say "cleared"; so
I'm not certain.

--Gary

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
...

Ok, let's try a different scenario then. Suppose you're talking to the
Class B tower and you're just outside the Class B surface area (and below
the remaining Class B). You want to land, and the tower says "follow the
Arrow on five-mile final, runway 31". Doing so would take you into the
Class B, but the controller didn't say "cleared". Is that still a
clearance into Class B? I assume not, but I don't see anything in the FARs
or the AIM saying that a clearance (except for taxi clearances) must say
"cleared"; so I'm not certain.


No, it's not a clearance, and it's not a realistic scenario. The tower
isn't going to tell you to follow anyone, the tower's going to tell you to
contact Class B Approach.

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
...

If you're getting flight following and a Class B approach controller tells
you to fly a heading and altitude which would in fact take you into the
Class B, would that constitute a clearance? I've been taught it would not
(and I'd always ask the controller to confirm clearance into Class B), but
I
see nothing in the FARs or the AIM that says whether or not such an
instruction (even without "cleared to") constitutes a clearance; I see
nothing there that says a clearance contains the word "cleared" (even
though
I assume that's the case, except for taxi clearances and revisions to
previous clearances).

Sometimes I think I have been cleared through a class bravo without really
hearing the word "cleared", I think it depends on the situation, who are you
talking to, etc:

Cessna 5GT: Atlanta approach, cessna 5GT, 15 miles south of ATL, 5500 ft,
request transition on the class B to fly over ATL

ATL approach: Cessna 5GT, squawk 1234

ATL approach: Cessna 5GT, radar contact, descend and maintain 5000, fly
heading 010
(which takes me straight over ATL)

Cessna 5GT: descend to 5000, heading 010.

In this case, it is very clear that the controller is vectoring me inside
the class B airspace, and even though I did not hear the magic "clear
through class B", I assume that I am cleared to go in, beacause 1) I am
talking to the guy who is controlling the class B and 2) he issued me a
vector that takes me right through the class B, as I requested.

If I were in flight following, really close to a class bravo shelf, I'll
probably maintain away from it, or talk to approach telling him that I am
about to enter the class B if I continue with the recommended heading.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...


It isn't proper for a Class B approach controller to issue a heading or
altitude to a VFR aircraft outside of Class B airspace.

Why? you could be doing fight following and he can recommend a heading for
traffic avoidance. Are they not allowed to do that?
Also, if you want to transition the class bravo, they may give you a heading
before you enter the class B so they place you somewhere where you can
transition the class bravo airspace safely. If I am coming heading towards
the approach end of a runway, they may want to vector me out towards the
center of the airport before I enter the class B.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

No, it's not a clearance, and it's not a realistic scenario. The tower
isn't going to tell you to follow anyone, the tower's going to tell you to
contact Class B Approach.

Sorry Stephen but it happened to me! (of all people!) I was in a C-150
(that's right) going into KSEA class Bravo. I never received the magic
words "cleared into bravo" but was given a squawk code, told only to
follow the MD80 after " I call your base".

Coming from the south the controller had me parallel the extended
centerline as the big jets landed one-after-another. Right about the
threshold the controller said, "Cessna xxxx, you may now turn your base
and follow the MD80 on short final, cleared to land runway xx, Caution
wake turbulence..." I never spoke with approach...just the tower.

Antonio

Guillermo wrote:
Sometimes I think I have been cleared through a class bravo without really
hearing the word "cleared", I think it depends on the situation, who are you
talking to, etc:

I always listen for the words "cleared into class bravo" and repeat
them back, just to get 'em on the tape twice in case there's any
question later. If I don't hear them, I ask for verification that I am
in fact cleared into the bravo.

-R

In article TiEme.20500$g66.9921@attbi_s71, Jay Honeck wrote:
It doesn't matter who has jurisdiction if neither of them issued a
clearance into Class B airspace.

Being told by the Class D tower controller to follow the Arrow in to land
isn't being "cleared"?

No - because you typically don't get any clearances at all in Class D
except for 'Cleared to land', 'Cleared for takeoff' and IFR clearances.
If he was operating under VFR, in all probability he didn't have any ATC
clearances at all.

If ATC gives you a vector and it takes you straight through a cloud (and
you are VFR) you must not follow that vector. Same thing with class B
airspace. If you are VFR and have not heard "Cleared into class bravo"
you must not enter class bravo regardless of what a controller says. You
must treat the class B exactly like getting too close to a cloud.

That's just bureaucratic hogwash. If the Class D controller didn't have the
jurisdiction, he shouldn't have given the instruction.

There are many instructions controllers shouldn't be giving, but that
doesn't relieve the pilot in command of the responsibility not to bust
airspace they shouldn't be busting (or fly into clouds they shouldn't be
flying in).

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

In article .com, Antoñio wrote:
So the fact that I was under ATC instruction does not give me the
clearance?

Absolutely right. The ATC instruction you had did not include the phrase
"...cleared into Class Bravo" so you weren't cleared.

Treat the class B like you would a cloud. If there had been a cloud
starting exactly where the class B started and filling the entire volume
of the class B airspace, as you were (I presume) operating under VFR,
what would you have done as you approached the cloud you didn't have
an IFR clearance to enter?

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

In article , Gary Drescher wrote:
If we didn't happen to know otherwise via folklore and AIM passages, we'd
reasonably guess that a pilot should analogously comply with an ATC
directive to enter Class B without a clearance. The FARs don't say anything
to the contrary.

Yes they do - they say you must not enter class B without an explicit
clearance from the controlling agency responsible for class B. A class D
tower does not trump this. The police officer analogy is a bit weak
because typically when a police officer is directing traffic through red
lights it is due to an *abnormal* traffic situation. However, a class D
controller sequencing his traffic is not, and the class D controller
(unlike the police officer) giving an instruction without "cleared into
class B" is not clearing you into class B airspace. Similarly, if a
controller instructs you to fly a course and altitude that means you
cannot land without endangering persons or property on the ground (i.e.
over a densely populated area), and your engine swallows a valve and you
crash into the roof of a house, the FAA will find you - not the
controller - at fault for accepting an instruction or clearance that
requires you to do something that is against the FARs. I noticed in the
US not much attention is paid to this - however, here, the documentation
I've read has a couple of reminders that you as pilot in command must
refuse ATC instructions that make you do something against the regs
(such as flying VFR through a cloud, or flying less than the minimum
distances to persons or property, or being in a situation that you would
not be able to 'land clear' in the event of your engine stopping).

The pilot's requirement to not violate the regs trumps any instruction
ATC might give you. The pilot being the final authority to the operation
of the aircraft trumps any instruction ATC may give you. However, it's
always nice that you tell a controller that you're 'unable'!

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"