GA headed for regulatory trouble

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:Cbaye.120432$_o.87485@attbi_s71...
The Washington, D.C. ADIZ is there, and not moving any time soon. We,
as
pilots, had better learn to live with it, and properly navigate
through
it -- it's NOT difficult -- or our concept of Free Flight in America
will
be jeopardized.

Yes, we shouldn't violate it, but we also shouldn't stop fighting
against
it using all available legal means.

Bravo! Now THAT is a constructive attitude!

Of course, that assumes that the bureaucracy is going to give up it's
feathered nest because, well heck, because we asked them to.

We don't have to ASK them to...

We have the Consitiutionally guarenteed right to TELL them to give it up.

The problems stem from the fact that the electorate won't get off their
collective keesters to do anything about it.

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 21:11:08 -0400, Bob Noel
wrote in
::

In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote:

Flying the ADIZ is simple. File, talk, squawk.

Oh, you forgot the important part: If you should happen to
accidentally stumble into the DC ADIZ, you are subject to your
government's military hardware intentionally shooting you down
in the name of security.

Exactly how many times has our government's military hardware
intentionally shot down someone penetrating the DC ADIZ?

The fact that within the short period of time the DC ADIZ has been
in effect there have yet been no shoot downs is not the point.

If there are any terrorists considering using a GA aircraft against DC the
fact that no aircraft has yet been shot down is probably something of which
they are very aware. I doubt if anyone wants to be responsible for shooting
down an innocent aircraft. Yet that very hesitation will benefit the one
aircraft that does try to do something. I wonder what a King Air fully
loaded with explosives and fuel would do to the White House? According to
AOPA, since it is a GA aircraft it should have no effect.

"Skywise" wrote in message
...
"Jay Honeck" wrote in
news:Odiye.121728$_o.119692@attbi_s71:

I was merely agreeing with your suggestion. :-)

Personally, I think it would be excellent to organize a mass protest
where 100s of planes all flew toward the ADIZ en masse. (Stopping short
of actually breaking the ADIZ, of course.) It could garner terrific
press coverage, and probably cause great confusion in ATC and the
Administration.

Who knows, it might even make the point that the ADIZ is pointless? It
might even result in the ADIZ shrinking, or being eliminated.

My experience with working with pilots, however, indicates that
organizing a protest of this kind would be very difficult. Getting
pilots in line is like herding cats -- it ain't gonna happen easily.

Unfortunately it would probably have the opposite effect. The government
would likely see it as an excuse to simply end GA across the board.

I could see the congressional hearings now,

"Obviously GA is a threat to the national security and should
be banned. Look at what hundreds of miscreant private pilots
did. They all worked together to attack the security of the
nations capitol. They are a threat on the same order as Al Queda."

Just as Al Queda and their kin fanaticals think so differently that
they embrace what we find appalling (eg suicide bombing), our
government thinks so differently from how a normal intelligent
educated rational human being does that they would react differently
than we would to the same situation. They've already proven that
with the existence of the ADIZ.


What...don't you trust government? You better be more respectful of your
masters! And they say I have weird political views :~)

"Jay Beckman" wrote in message
newsopye.4531$Qo.3221@fed1read01...
"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:Cbaye.120432$_o.87485@attbi_s71...
The Washington, D.C. ADIZ is there, and not moving any time soon.
We,
as
pilots, had better learn to live with it, and properly navigate
through
it -- it's NOT difficult -- or our concept of Free Flight in America
will
be jeopardized.

Yes, we shouldn't violate it, but we also shouldn't stop fighting
against
it using all available legal means.

Bravo! Now THAT is a constructive attitude!

Of course, that assumes that the bureaucracy is going to give up it's
feathered nest because, well heck, because we asked them to.

We don't have to ASK them to...

We have the Consitiutionally guarenteed right to TELL them to give it up.

And we have a Constitutional right to NOT have government steal our property
to give it to someone else.


The problems stem from the fact that the electorate won't get off their
collective keesters to do anything about it.

That same electorate that put them in in the first place?

Reality check!

You say you agree with me, but then you say it's foolish to "leave GPS on
the ground". "Foolish" is a pretty strong word, and is incompatible with
agreeing with me 100%.

Well, you keep changing your interpretation of what I'm saying.

For the record, I have said: "It is, of course, possible to navigate the
ADIZ without GPS."

I have also said: "It is foolish to leave GPS on the ground when you're
betting the farm every time you fly in the ADIZ."

These are not incompatible statements.

What we *can* do, and what is *wise* to do, are often two very different
things.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

GEORGE BUSH IS GOING TO STAY AT THE ASPEN INN???

Please. That's "Alexis Park Inn & Suites."

If you're going to give me free advertising, at least get the name right!

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Of course you are correct, but the actions that some of your fellow airmen
are encouraging is symtomatic of what is wrong with GA and the FAA's
willful disregard of enforcing regulations. The irresponsible actions of
the minority have created a strong (and growing) anti- GA lobby.

So, were an ADIZ to pop up around your hotel, what would you hope us other
pilots would do?

I expect there would be (impotent) howls of protest from a small but vocal
group of pilots known as "AOPA."

But what has this example got to do with an ADIZ that has been thrown up
around our seat of government which -- as you may recall -- WAS attacked
successfully from the air using suicide-piloted aircraft?

I mean, really. At some level you must concede that the White House,
Capitol, and Pentagon are proven targets of terrorists who *have already
used* aircraft to try to attack them. The ADIZ -- which only requires that
you have a squawk code and a flight plan -- is a pretty loose defense, IMHO,
considering everything that has occurred in D.C.

In fact, be careful what you wish for. If you guys keep clamoring about how
"ineffective" this ADIZ is, the Feds just might clamp down a "No-Fly Zone"
over Washington once again.

THAT would be far more effective against terrorist attack from the air,
don't you think?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Well, you keep changing your interpretation of what I'm saying.

Well, no.

The =flavor= of what you are saying ("only a damn fool would ever leave
the ground even on a clear day without two GPS units and a co-pilot")(*)
is incompatible with some of the plain text of what you are saying ("I
agree 100% [with Jose's contention that "electing not to fly in the DC
area because of this would indicate to me a lack of confidence in one's
flying skills that requires more training")

You said, very strongly, you consider "flying near the ADIZ without GPS
to be simply asking for trouble". I don't see it that way at all.
Where is my interpretation of what you're saying "wrong" or "changed"?

Jose
(*) of course you never said that in words, but it =is= the tone of what
you have been saying, in many words.
--
You may not get what you pay for, but you sure as hell pay for what you get.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

But what has this example got to do with an ADIZ that has been thrown up
around our seat of government...

An ADIZ is an ADIZ. You have stated on several occasions that you don't
mind the one around DC because it affects few people, least of all you
(despite the fact that you later ended up flying there yourself), and we
should just live with it becasuse it is the law and it's possible to
obey. You've said that we still have 99% of the country to fly over,
and we should be thankful for that.

As I fly in the Northeast, and have friends (though not of the proper
type!) in DC, the ADIZ has significantly affected me. I've never been
to Iowa. The 99% of the country I can fly over is of less impact to me
than that single ten mile circle.

I'm trying to bring it home to you. That's what it has to do with.

The ADIZ -- which only requires that
you have a squawk code and a flight plan -- is a pretty loose defense, IMHO

The ADIZ is a useless nusiance at the outside of the donut. The inner
circle is essentially a no-fly zone for small GA aircraft. (I won't
reiterate the kind of aircraft that actually caused our.. um.. problem).
While it is possible now to fly into the DC3, it requires
fingerprinting, two separate trips (of course not with GA aircraft) into
that ring, and an invasion of privacy that is totally unwarranted, for a
degree of security that is almost laughable.

At some level you must concede that the White House,
Capitol, and Pentagon are proven targets of terrorists who *have already
used* aircraft to try to attack them.

I will concede that they are targets of terrorists who have already used
Ryder trucks and commercial jets to attack this country. Both enter DC
freely.

[a "No-Fly Zone"] would be far more effective against terrorist attack from the air,
don't you think?

Yes, it would. But it would have to be huge. The inner (protected)
part of this zone would need to extend out to the countryside. The
outer (protecting) ring would need to be totally in the countryside.
Any aircraft entering the outer ring would need to be diverted or shot
down without exception before it penetrated the inner zone, so that the
debris would fall on farmland. There would be no exception for kites,
RC craft, or commercial airliners, there would be no altitude limits,
and zero tolerance.

Otherwise all you stop are law-abiding terrorists (with GPS).

Jose
--
You may not get what you pay for, but you sure as hell pay for what you get.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.