NW_Pilot's Trans-Atlantic Flight -- All the scary details...

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 2 Oct 2006 11:32:30 -0700, "NW_Pilot"
wrote in
:

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
. ..
Given the fact that the aux fuel system was a modification upon which
your safety depended, did you personally take the time to analyze its
intended operation from the schematic diagram and description of
system operation (not its use, but how it was engineered to operate)?
I believe you are intelligent enough to have done a reasonable job of
system analysis without benefit of specific training or an appropriate
college degree.

Yes, I looked at the system!


And your analysis failed to discern what would occur to the fuel from
the return line when operating from the aux tank while the main tanks
were full?


and so did the engineer that designed it and
wrote the instructions for it's usage! I would also assume so did the
faa
inspector that approved the system description and usage instructions.
Once
you go changing the factory fuel system design you go from the
engineered
description of the now modified fuel system.

If I understand your story correctly, the cause of the wing tank
venting was a result of the fuel return line pouring fuel that was
being feed from the separate aux tank fuel system into the wing
tank(s). Is that correct?

The aux tank was connected directly to the engine after the aircraft fuel
system, Not to the wing and the provided documentation and system
description mentioned nothing about the fuel return to the main tanks. The
description also stated that it was connected after the aircraft fuel
system.

As long as the aux fuel line was ahead of the fuel
filter/gascolator(?), or the aux fuel system contained its own filter,
that is the logical point to feed aux fuel to the engine. Without a
check valve between the Cessna fuel shutoff valve and the point
between it and the engine where the aux fuel line was attached, there
is also the possibility of back feeding fuel into the wing tanks if
the Cessna shutoff valve is left open while the aux tank fuel pump is
in operation. Did the instructions mention such a check valve or
closing the Cessna shutoff valve?

Yes, the aircraft fuel was shut off by closing the aircraft fuel valve.



They left out something very very important in the new systems
description!

Are you referring to the necessity to burn fuel from the wing tanks
before switching to the aux tank, so that there would be adequate room
in the wing tanks to hold the fuel being returned from the fuel
injection system?

Correct, They failed to mention this the description and instruction
provided!

therir instruction basicaly short and simple! Climb to altitude on both
tanks aircraft tanks once at altitude switch to ferry tank until specified
mark on aux tank near empty then switch back to aircraft fuel.

Do you know the name of the individual who wrote that? Do you know
the name of the FSDO inspector who certified the aux fuel tank
installation? I would contact those people personally, and make them
aware of the hazard they caused.

That is all on the 337 form I should be reciving a copy of all info in the
mail!


Now!! If the instructions stated to run on the left tank till near empty
then switch to the ferry tank and monitor the left tank fuel quantity and
return to aircraft fuel and switch ferry tank off when left tank was
almost
full about 2 hours flight time this little problem would not have
happened.

Given the inoperative fuel gages, the wing tanks could have filled up
at any time without your being aware of it. Considering your mission
and the operation of the aux fuel system, fuel gages are critical to
an Atlantic crossing. Cessna, FSDO, and Telford should be made aware
of that fact.

The Greenland CAA took a copy of the instructions and fuel system
description and copy of Cessna description of the problem and will be
contacting the ferry tank mfg and installer telling them to correct their
system instructions.

That's a good thing, but I'd make sure Cessna, FSDO, and Telford
appreciate the hazard they caused.

Greenland CAA will be contacting the Inspector and Telford they said it was
a safety issue with the paperwork that needed urgent attention.



Can you provide the manufacturer's name and model number for the aux
fuel system installed in the aircraft you delivered?

The Ferry tank was Manufactured And Installed By Telford Aviation In
Bangor,
Maine.

That would be these folks: http://www.telfordaviation.com/contact.html

Given their mission statement:

TELFORD SERVICES - Mission

------------------------------------------------------------------
The mission of The Telford Group, Inc. is to integrate teamwork,
dedication and vision to excel in the aviation industry in quality
and customer satisfaction. It is our foremost goal to continually
enhance our products and services to an unsurpassed level and
create a mutually prosperous and beneficial relationship for our
customers and associates.

I would contact these people (all six of them):

TELFORD SERVICES - Contact Information

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Office and Mailing Address:
The Telford Group
154 Maine Avenue
Bangor, Maine 04401
Telephone: 1-207-262-6098
Facsimile: 1-207-262-8708
Email:
Telford Allen III, Chairman of the Board
Larry Wilson, CEO, Telford Canada, Ltd.
Bob Ziegelaar, President, The Telford Group
Monique Plummer, Administrative Assistant
Aircraft Maintenance - Telford Aviation Services
Travis Allen, V.P. Operations
General Aviation - Telford Aviation Services
Ray Lane, Manager, General Aviation

And make them aware of the hazard they caused.

Ray Lane, Was the one that explaind they system to me and also the one that
told me that nothing was wrong with their instructions description or system
and not their problem.



In the future I will try and avoid this company or flying with this
company's installed equipment if at all possible and if I am to use them
(Not Likely) I will require them to provide a full schematic of the system
and talk with them more to support their documentation.

See what experience does for you? Here's hoping your bag of
experience fills up before your bag of luck is exhausted. :-)

Another thing that ****es me off when I called the company (telford) to
help
with the problem they were rude and said there instruction were correct
and
that it was not their problem!

Did you get the name of the individual who said that? Don't forget to
mention that in your correspondence to Telford.


Yep. Ray Lane



Cessna support and the weekend A&P in Greenland were the best
they had a solution with in a few hours after faxing the instructions to
them and are also writing a letter to Telford explaining the problem with
their instructions.

You should do the same, IMO. See if they dig themselves a deeper
hole, or if Telford management wants to make it right.

Already on it!



How large is the documentation of the aux fuel system? Is it possible
you could make a scanned copy available? In particular, I'd like to
see a schematic drawing of the system and the description of its
operation, and its operation use instructions, in that order.

No schematic was available only textual description of the fuel system and
its operation. All paperwork was given to new owner and there was no photo
copy machine available in Beirut at time of delivery for me to make a copy
for myself. The Greenland CAA made copies of all paperwork and said they
will forward me copies of all paperwork.

It would be good for you to have a copy.

You have made the crossing before, right? Who manufactured and
installed the ferry tank(s) you used on previous Atlantic crossing(s)?

Turtle Pac tanks! And Local DAR's usually are contracted to inspect the
tanking set up along with the certificate of export.


If we don't hold these folks feet to the fire, who will?

Larry Dighera wrote:

Was that a mechanical tach?

I would write a report of your experience detailing the equipment
failures that occurred, and politely and respectfully send copies to
Cessna and Garmin. If you word it, so that it contains implicit
references to their exposure to civil liability, and express your
disappointment with the performance of their products, who knows how
they may respond. They may try to appease you with a perk or two. If
not, forward the report to AOPA, FSDO, and AvWeb. :-)

And a NASA Report.
--
Gene Seibel
Gene & Sue's Aeroplanes - http://pad39a.com/gene/planes.html
Because we fly, we envy no one.

Steven - quit feedig the trolls... This guy's history of idiotic
responses is unbeliveable... He's hanging out here and he's not even a
pilot... He plays games instead... Do a Google Groups search on him and
see for yourself...

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201
4443H @ UMP

NW_Pilot wrote:
"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...

NW_Pilot writes:


When on the phone with Cessna engineering and
Garmin support they said they had a similar problem during stalls and
slow
flight.

I guess reboots are to be expected during stalls and slow flight,
given how incredibly rare and improbable these things are, eh?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.


Not rare or improbable at all!!! Stalls and slow flight are used during
approach and landing they said they fixed that problem hahaha but still have
others! Or maybe that comment was just sarcasm (check spelling) hahahaha

Jay Honeck wrote:
The fact is, you're always going to get flamed, no matter what you do.
You can't worry about it.
I agree. What's to worry about? Flames aren't fatal. They don't even
hurt. :-)

Well, as you know I am immune to flames, too -- but I often hear from
"lurkers" who say they don't post for fear of getting lambasted.

Not everyone is a thick-skinned as we are, and -- if we want GA to grow
-- we need to be welcoming everyone into this group with open arms, not
poison pens.

Good luck with that. I'm thin skinned, but at least I know how to use a
kill file.

Funny, though, people posting the flames wouldn't say such things in
real life.

("Jon Kraus" wrote)
He's hanging out here and he's not even a pilot...


Hey!


Montblack

"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...
Steven - quit feedig the trolls... This guy's history of idiotic
responses is unbeliveable... He's hanging out here and he's not even a
pilot... He plays games instead... Do a Google Groups search on him and
see for yourself...

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201
4443H @ UMP

NW_Pilot wrote:
"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...

NW_Pilot writes:


When on the phone with Cessna engineering and
Garmin support they said they had a similar problem during stalls and
slow
flight.

I guess reboots are to be expected during stalls and slow flight,
given how incredibly rare and improbable these things are, eh?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.


Not rare or improbable at all!!! Stalls and slow flight are used during
approach and landing they said they fixed that problem hahaha but still
have others! Or maybe that comment was just sarcasm (check spelling)
hahahaha

I think I read in to that on his last question that why I posted a lint to
Cessna pricing.

Hey! what? Did I same something incorrect?

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201
4443H @ UMP

Montblack wrote:

("Jon Kraus" wrote)

He's hanging out here and he's not even a pilot...



Hey!


Montblack

Recently, Mxsmanic posted:

Larry Dighera writes:

I would write a report of your experience detailing the equipment
failures that occurred, and politely and respectfully send copies to
Cessna and Garmin. If you word it, so that it contains implicit
references to their exposure to civil liability, and express your
disappointment with the performance of their products, who knows how
they may respond. They may try to appease you with a perk or two.
If not, forward the report to AOPA, FSDO, and AvWeb. :-)

Most software licenses disclaim all responsibility for everything
except an unreadable CD, although these disclaimers have never been
thoroughly tested in court, as far as I know.

The kind of software that you're using isn't likely to get you killed.
This is a different ballgame altogether.

Neil

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...

I have a lot of experience with this sort of thing.

I've never seen a software engineering simulator. It is in French or
English? Where can I download a demo?

actually, i've always been rather fond of "porcine copulator" although
the target usually either does not understand or is anxious to ask how
i found out.

dan


Montblack wrote:
("Larry Dighera" wrote USEFUL INFORMATION)
If the lurkers post USEFUL INFORMATION, that is correct and supported by
independent citations, they have nothing to fear. Otherwise, it would
appear that the 'flameage' is working.


"Bloviating idiot" is still my favorite ...flameage.


Montblack