How often do you have to go around?

Ron Wanttaja writes:

The actual size of an aircraft at 3 miles is probably smaller than the projected
size of the monitor's pixel.

Probably. I turned on the headings for MSFS and I still could not see
the aircraft--it was indeed smaller than one pixel, so there was
nothing there. It has to be about 1 nm away before I can see a pixel
moving (for small aircraft).

It's your predator instincts that help pick out
the airplane (e.g., "something's moving"), not the physical size of the dot.

Unfortunately there's a lot of aliasing on a computer display, so lots
of pixels are changing.

The aircraft configuration isn't identifiable until it gets quite close, and not
by type until it gets even closer. Though I once ID'd a friend's airplane at
about three miles due to its color....

Real-life normal vision should be able to see an aircraft moving at a
greater distance than on a computer screen, I think, especially in
clear air (most computer screens do not fully tax human visual
acuity).

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Wade Hasbrouck writes:

You are probably correct... I was just thinking of a recent instance of when
I was approaching RNT to land was given "Cleared to land #2 following Cessna
on 3 mile final, report the traffic in sight..." and probably didn't pick
him up until he was on about 1.5 - 2 mile final, which caused me to discover
a phrase that causes concern in passengers... Glanced around doing my CGUMPS
check, and then looked back out the windshield and said "Ok... Where did he
go???" My passenger later on told me that that phase "concerned" her, and
told her "Oh... I wasn't worried about hitting him. I just needed to know
where he was at so that I knew when to turn, and if I couldn't find him I
would have just asked the tower where he was..."

A famous PSA flight in San Diego uttered much the same words, and a
few seconds later, they hit him, so I can understand why she would be
concerned.

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Wade Hasbrouck writes:

Right hand pattern = all turns are made to the right from the pilot's
perspective... take the "as seen by someone coming straight in" part out...

I'm having trouble visualizing a pattern with all right turns that
would not be to the right of the runway, as seen from the final
approach.

Likewise, if it contains only left turns, it would have to be to the
left.

However, certainly the pilot's point of view is the important one,
since that's what one sees outside the window.

Right hand pattern is take off, followed by a right turn to crosswind,
follwed shortly by a right turn to downwind, followed by a right turn to
base, follwed by a right turn to final.

OK

Standard pattern entry is a 45 to the downwind... However, when going into
places like Boeing Field, it depends on where you are coming from... i.e.
if you are arriving at Boeing Field from the south and they are landing to
the south, the real life controller will just have do a "zero degree entry"
to the downwind... if you are approaching from the NE (downtown Bellevue)
and they are landing to the south they will usually tell you "report Seward
Park" and at Seward park tell you "Cleared to land 13L" (short runway) and
you have to make about 135 degree right hand turn to enter the downwind.
The will occaisonally tell you "enter base for 13L" when coming from
Bellevue, but have gotten the "Seward Park" thing much more frequently. And
if you are approaching Boeing from the West, it is about a 90 degree entry
to the downwind and "close in" (over the river)

So there is a rule if you are not told otherwise, but with many
exceptions?

If I hear "make base," does that mean enter the pattern at the normal
turn from downwind to base (entering right at that corner), or does it
mean a 45-degree entry into the base leg?

And then of course Flight Sim doesn't cover local VFR procedures like
"Mercer Departure" or "Vashon Departure", but that is kind of expected since
there are so many airports in the product and many of them are not official
FAA procedures i.e. try finding an FAA definition for "Vashon Departure" or
"Mercer Departure", but in real life if you ask for a "Vashon Departure" the
controller will clear you for and know exactly what you are talking about.

True, MSFS doesn't cover stuff like that. There are a lot of things
that are not covered by ATC, so you have to pretend. Unfortunately,
pretending removes any spontaneity, which in turn means that you know
what the ATC is going to "say" and you don't have to adapt on the spur
of the moment.

Basic point of my comment was that the flight sim doesn't necessarily
represent real life accurately in this aspect and that it would be a "fun
feature" to have the FAA come down on the AI Pilots in flight sim, and that
it is not a really good tool if you are trying to familiarize yourself with
how things work at the real airport.

It's safe and very inexpensive, though.

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On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 07:20:33 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:

Ron Wanttaja writes:
It's your predator instincts that help pick out
the airplane (e.g., "something's moving"), not the physical size of the dot.

Unfortunately there's a lot of aliasing on a computer display, so lots
of pixels are changing.

Yup. Yet another difference between simulations and real life.

The aircraft configuration isn't identifiable until it gets quite close, and not
by type until it gets even closer. Though I once ID'd a friend's airplane at
about three miles due to its color....

Real-life normal vision should be able to see an aircraft moving at a
greater distance than on a computer screen, I think, especially in
clear air (most computer screens do not fully tax human visual
acuity).

Unfortunately, there are other factors working against the pilot in a real
aircraft. There is a LOT of sky to look at, there are often multiple aircraft
to track, backgrounds are non-homogeneous, there's the off-center seating
position in most aircraft, there's haze, and there's dirt, flaws, and
reflections on one's own plexiglass. When I'm going into a high-traffic area, I
often weave the plane (open cockpit) back and forth slightly so I can get an
unobstructed view forward past the edges of the windscreen.

Ron Wanttaja

On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 07:28:52 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:

Wade Hasbrouck writes:

Right hand pattern = all turns are made to the right from the pilot's
perspective... take the "as seen by someone coming straight in" part out...

I'm having trouble visualizing a pattern with all right turns that
would not be to the right of the runway, as seen from the final
approach.

Likewise, if it contains only left turns, it would have to be to the
left.

You're both saying the same thing, but Wade is defining it by the actions the
pilot takes (left or right turns). My home field has one runway. When the wind
is from the North, we fly a left-hand pattern and land to the North:

http://tinyurl.com/y55t8g

When the wind is from the south, we fly a right-hand pattern and land at the
opposite end:

http://tinyurl.com/tpmtn

To someone on a straight-in (the cad!) the rest of the planes are indeed to the
left or right, depending on which way we're landing. But pilots are more
concerned with how they have to maneuver their own aircraft.


Ron Wanttaja

"Ron Wanttaja" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 07:28:52 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:

Wade Hasbrouck writes:

Right hand pattern = all turns are made to the right from the pilot's
perspective... take the "as seen by someone coming straight in" part
out...

I'm having trouble visualizing a pattern with all right turns that
would not be to the right of the runway, as seen from the final
approach.

Likewise, if it contains only left turns, it would have to be to the
left.

You're both saying the same thing, but Wade is defining it by the actions
the
pilot takes (left or right turns). My home field has one runway. When
the wind
is from the North, we fly a left-hand pattern and land to the North:

http://tinyurl.com/y55t8g

When the wind is from the south, we fly a right-hand pattern and land at
the
opposite end:

http://tinyurl.com/tpmtn

To someone on a straight-in (the cad!) the rest of the planes are indeed
to the
left or right, depending on which way we're landing. But pilots are more
concerned with how they have to maneuver their own aircraft.


Ron Wanttaja

Links for procedures to BFI (where I trained, and my former home airport)

http://www.metrokc.gov/airport/pilots/noise_chart.jpg
http://www.metrokc.gov/airport/pilots/procedures.stm

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Wade Hasbrouck writes:

Right hand pattern = all turns are made to the right from the pilot's
perspective... take the "as seen by someone coming straight in" part
out...

I'm having trouble visualizing a pattern with all right turns that
would not be to the right of the runway, as seen from the final
approach.

Likewise, if it contains only left turns, it would have to be to the
left.

Why would you want to visualize it this way? To me that is confusing.


However, certainly the pilot's point of view is the important one,
since that's what one sees outside the window.

Right hand pattern is take off, followed by a right turn to crosswind,
follwed shortly by a right turn to downwind, followed by a right turn to
base, follwed by a right turn to final.

OK

Standard pattern entry is a 45 to the downwind... However, when going
into
places like Boeing Field, it depends on where you are coming from...
i.e.
if you are arriving at Boeing Field from the south and they are landing
to
the south, the real life controller will just have do a "zero degree
entry"
to the downwind... if you are approaching from the NE (downtown Bellevue)
and they are landing to the south they will usually tell you "report
Seward
Park" and at Seward park tell you "Cleared to land 13L" (short runway)
and
you have to make about 135 degree right hand turn to enter the downwind.
The will occaisonally tell you "enter base for 13L" when coming from
Bellevue, but have gotten the "Seward Park" thing much more frequently.
And
if you are approaching Boeing from the West, it is about a 90 degree
entry
to the downwind and "close in" (over the river)

So there is a rule if you are not told otherwise, but with many
exceptions?

Yes, as I stated above, certain airports are sort of "interesting" like
Boeing Field, and this has to do with it's proximity to Renton (RNT) and
Sea-Tac (SEA). When Boeing Tower tells you "enter downwind for 13L" and you
are approaching from the south, they want you to do a direct entry to the
downwind, they can't have you flyout to the east and make a 45 degree entry,
because you would then be getting to close to the Renton Airport. Boeing
Field is very "non-standard" in many ways,

And, come to think of it, so far every towered airport I have been to (not
many - TIW, OLM, RNT, BFI, CYXX), when they wanted to me to enter on a 45 to
the downwind, they have specifically stated it.


If I hear "make base," does that mean enter the pattern at the normal
turn from downwind to base (entering right at that corner), or does it
mean a 45-degree entry into the base leg?


No... It means a "0 degreee entry to base" from where your at... i.e. your
position is sufficent that you could fly perpendicular to the runway from
your position and make a direct/0 degree entry to the base leg.

And then of course Flight Sim doesn't cover local VFR procedures like
"Mercer Departure" or "Vashon Departure", but that is kind of expected
since
there are so many airports in the product and many of them are not
official
FAA procedures i.e. try finding an FAA definition for "Vashon Departure"
or
"Mercer Departure", but in real life if you ask for a "Vashon Departure"
the
controller will clear you for and know exactly what you are talking
about.

True, MSFS doesn't cover stuff like that. There are a lot of things
that are not covered by ATC, so you have to pretend. Unfortunately,
pretending removes any spontaneity, which in turn means that you know
what the ATC is going to "say" and you don't have to adapt on the spur
of the moment.

Which if I am trying to practice/familarize myself with procedure specific
to a specific airport, MSFS is poor choice.


Basic point of my comment was that the flight sim doesn't necessarily
represent real life accurately in this aspect and that it would be a "fun
feature" to have the FAA come down on the AI Pilots in flight sim, and
that
it is not a really good tool if you are trying to familiarize yourself
with
how things work at the real airport.

It's safe and very inexpensive, though.

and unrealistic in this area. if you are trying to simulate "real life"
MSFS is a poor choice in many areas, this is one of them. many of the
others have already been discussed in other threads, which I am not saying
it isn't useful for other things, as I have stated in other threads (as so
have others) that it is useful tool for certain things, as long as you
realize what those things are and don't claim that is a totally accurate
depiction of the real word.

Roger (K8RI) wrote:


It's rare. I can't recall ever being told to go around at Dulles and
I can recall only once having a Gulfstream sent around because I was
on the runway. It's more common at airports with a lot of instructional

That's about my average as well for a bit over 1300 hours.

Once, many years ago an small turboprop had to go around at Lansing
as I hadn't cleared the runway.

In our case, we were cleared into position and hold and not given
our take-off clearance when they sent the Gulfsteam around. We
offered to get off (would not have been a problem, they weren't
that close in).

Wade Hasbrouck writes:

No... It means a "0 degreee entry to base" from where your at... i.e. your
position is sufficent that you could fly perpendicular to the runway from
your position and make a direct/0 degree entry to the base leg.

OK. If I'm not aligned with the base leg, what would the controller
request of me, and how would I enter it? (I don't think the sim ATC
is that sophisticated, but I'd still like to know.)

Will controllers ever ask you to enter a pattern in a way that
requires a sharp turn? For example if your heading is 240 and your
landing runway is 24, would a controller ever ask you to enter the
downwind leg of the pattern, which (if I understand correctly) would
require swinging well out to the left of RWY24 and making a 180° turn?
If so, what would be the reason for it?

Also, are the directions of patterns (left or right) always assigned
to avoid crossing the take-off and landing paths of parallel runways?
And can I assume that a controller will not ask me to enter a pattern
in a situation where I'd have to cross the approach and landing paths
of a parallel runway in use?

What happens with the center runway, when there are three runways?
How does the pattern work? (Three parallel runways seems to be
uncommon, though, especially active runways.)

Which if I am trying to practice/familarize myself with procedure specific
to a specific airport, MSFS is poor choice.

Yes, but there are not a lot of other options.

and unrealistic in this area. if you are trying to simulate "real life"
MSFS is a poor choice in many areas, this is one of them. many of the
others have already been discussed in other threads, which I am not saying
it isn't useful for other things, as I have stated in other threads (as so
have others) that it is useful tool for certain things, as long as you
realize what those things are and don't claim that is a totally accurate
depiction of the real word.

No simulation is totally accurate. But it's a lot better than
nothing, and I am not such a seasoned expert in flying that I cannot
learn from using the simulator.

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"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Wade Hasbrouck writes:

No... It means a "0 degreee entry to base" from where your at... i.e.
your
position is sufficent that you could fly perpendicular to the runway from
your position and make a direct/0 degree entry to the base leg.

OK. If I'm not aligned with the base leg, what would the controller
request of me, and how would I enter it? (I don't think the sim ATC
is that sophisticated, but I'd still like to know.)


Enter the base leg as however you see appropriate, if a pilot is unsure of
or confused about what they are to do, the rule is "ask for clarification",
but you don't have anyone to ask in flight sim. Flight Sim gives you this
instruction before entering the aiport's airspace, so you should have plenty
of space and time, to get aligned for the base leg. There is reason why it
is "pilot in command" and not "Air Traffic Controller in Command".

Problem with Flight Sim, is they are going to tell you "Enter leg of
pattern" on intial contact, which doesn't always happen in real life...
For instance when approaching Boeing Field from the East, and calling them
from over downtown Bellevue before entering their airspace... They may tell
you one of two things (landing to the south). Usually they will tell you
"Report Seward Park" or they will tell you "enter Base for 13L" If it is
the first, which it is 9 out 10 times, you head for Seward Park, and once
over Seward Park you give them a call and they will usually say "Cleared to
land runway 13L", which then you execute turn that is somewhere between 90
degrees and 135 degrees to enter the downwind, or the may tell you "Enter
base for 13L", which doesn't happen very offten.

Will controllers ever ask you to enter a pattern in a way that
requires a sharp turn? For example if your heading is 240 and your
landing runway is 24, would a controller ever ask you to enter the
downwind leg of the pattern, which (if I understand correctly) would
require swinging well out to the left of RWY24 and making a 180° turn?
If so, what would be the reason for it?

If the controller has any sort of brain you should get a "straight-in for
Runway 24" Happens all the time when going into Boeing Field when
approaching from the south and they are landing to the north (Rwy 31L and
31R).

When I initially took lessons on a solo scholarship through CAP, my
instructor and I were out doing touch and goes on Rwy 34 at GTF, on about
the third one, mid-field, the controller told us "Cessna xxxx, Cleared Touch
and Go, Runway 16.", which I looked at my instructor and asked "You mean we
gotta turn around and go to the other end???", which he told to hold on a
second, and about 3 seconds later, the controller came back and said "Sorry,
Cessna xxxx, cleared touch and go, Runway 34.", which afterward my
instructor said "Student controller..." and smiled.



Also, are the directions of patterns (left or right) always assigned
to avoid crossing the take-off and landing paths of parallel runways?
And can I assume that a controller will not ask me to enter a pattern
in a situation where I'd have to cross the approach and landing paths
of a parallel runway in use?

What happens with the center runway, when there are three runways?
How does the pattern work? (Three parallel runways seems to be
uncommon, though, especially active runways.)

Would assume the Center runway is pretty much always a "straight-in", don't
know of any non-towered airports that have three parallel runways. Never
landed at an airport with three parallel runways so, I don't know.