The ethanol nightmare has arrived!

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Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
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:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
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Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
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Jim Logajan wrote:
wrote:
LOCAL trucks, LOCAL trains, and LOCAL busses, but not
those
hauling
crap between cities, much less across the country.

Absent the invention of Mr. Fusion, there isn't going to
be
any
electric powered trucks hauling carrots from Fresno to
Chicago.

Ahem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_locomotive

Electric trains work in parts of Europe because a long haul
there
is what would be called just down the road in the US and for
local
transit such as the Bay Area Bart system.

What, a 2,000 mile long electric system is down the road?

Where is there an electric train system 2000 miles long?

Absent the invention of Mr. Fusion, there isn't going to be
any electric powered trains between LA and Omaha or even El
Paso.

Not with an attitude like that there isn't!

Attitude has nothing to do with it, it is economics.

Who is going to pay to string up and maintain the overhead wires
for
the 140,490 miles of freight railway in the US?


Same people that pays for everything, you.

And what would be the motivation to do this unless there was some
astounding breakthrough and electricity became esentially free?



Well, when it's cheaper than diesel.... That's what we're talking
about, I believe.

OK, so there is this astounding breakthrough and electricity becomes
essentially free and you electrify the roughly 150,000 miles of
freight railway.

That takes care of about 38% of the freight in terms of ton-miles.

Then all you have to do is electrify a couple of orders of magnitude
more highways and build electric trucks.

No I don't.


Then all you have to do is electrify all the roads between the rail
depots, distribution centers, and all the shops, stores, and
supermarkets.

Why would I do that?


If the astounding breakthrough occured, it would be far simpler and
cheaper to just synthesize diesel fuel with the electricity, which
isn't done now because the cost of the energy to do it is too high.


OK, now you're thinking.

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

OK, so SF or whatever. In any case, just reintroducing rail in place of
the current over-reliance on trucking would be a huge help. Even diesel
trains are many rimes more efficient than trucks.

Because, in spite of roughly 150,000 miles of track, rail doesn't go
anywhere near all the places stuff needs to go to.

And, trains are only slightly more efficient than trucks for the majority
of freight.

Where trains have the big edge is on heavy bulk stuff like coal, lumber,
raw steel, etc.

They are less efficient for stuff like lettuce and iPods.


--
Jim Pennino

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Jay Honeck wrote:
Electric trains work in parts of Europe because a long haul there
is what would be called just down the road in the US and for local
transit such as the Bay Area Bart system.

Absent the invention of Mr. Fusion, there isn't going to be any
electric powered trains between LA and Omaha or even El Paso.

Diesel-electric locomotives are the norm in the US. Some of those
electric engines are decades old, and going strong. Not the same, I
know...but perhaps indicative of what electric technology *can* do.

Electric motor, Jay, motor! :-)

http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/engine.htm

wrote:
Jay Honeck wrote:
Electric trains work in parts of Europe because a long haul there
is what would be called just down the road in the US and for local
transit such as the Bay Area Bart system.

Absent the invention of Mr. Fusion, there isn't going to be any
electric powered trains between LA and Omaha or even El Paso.

Diesel-electric locomotives are the norm in the US. Some of those electric
engines are decades old, and going strong. Not the same, I know...but
perhaps indicative of what electric technology *can* do.

Diesel-electric locomotives run on diesel fuel, not electricity.

A big conventional diesel engine drives a conventional generator which
in turn powers electric motors.

Why don't they just drive the thing directly from the diesel engine?

The electric drive eliminates the need for a huge transmission.


Yes, and the other reason is that electric motors make maximum torque at
zero RPM which is pretty much opposite from a diesel engine. This is an
advantageous characteristic for a machine like a locomotive.

Matt

wrote in message
...
Jim Logajan wrote:
wrote:
LOCAL trucks, LOCAL trains, and LOCAL busses, but not those hauling
crap between cities, much less across the country.

Absent the invention of Mr. Fusion, there isn't going to be any
electric powered trucks hauling carrots from Fresno to Chicago.

Ahem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_locomotive

Electric trains work in parts of Europe because a long haul there
is what would be called just down the road in the US and for local
transit such as the Bay Area Bart system.

Absent the invention of Mr. Fusion, there isn't going to be any
electric powered trains between LA and Omaha or even El Paso.

http://fusion.gat.com/global/Home (Maybe in our lifetimes??)

"Matt W. Barrow" wrote in
:

wrote in message
...
Jim Logajan wrote:
wrote:
LOCAL trucks, LOCAL trains, and LOCAL busses, but not those
hauling
crap between cities, much less across the country.

Absent the invention of Mr. Fusion, there isn't going to be any
electric powered trucks hauling carrots from Fresno to Chicago.

Ahem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_locomotive

Electric trains work in parts of Europe because a long haul there
is what would be called just down the road in the US and for local
transit such as the Bay Area Bart system.

Absent the invention of Mr. Fusion, there isn't going to be any
electric powered trains between LA and Omaha or even El Paso.

http://fusion.gat.com/global/Home (Maybe in our lifetimes??)





Well, the Cadarache plant is under construction, and with this new large
scale facility, they do reckon they'll get the sustained fire they've
been seeking. I think th elongest reaction so far has been less than 2
seconds, but they reclon a larger reactor will sort that out. I believe
completion is due about 2012, but they're talking cloned facilities
about ten years after that.
There's a guy in Purdue U who reckons he's discovered a different kind
of cold fusion, but I think he's been largely discredited now. This was
several years ago and it was based on sonoluminscence, and there is some
energy detectable, but they reckon his measurement system isn't up to
the task. There's also been some big progress with zero point
experimentation, but even optimistc scientists reckon that's at least a
century away ( I'll qualify that as "sane" scientists before someone
produces some tinfoil doctor of reflexology who's made a zero point
device with two pieces of polished glass and some dental floss)



Bertie

wrote in :

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

OK, so SF or whatever. In any case, just reintroducing rail in place
of
the current over-reliance on trucking would be a huge help. Even
diesel
trains are many rimes more efficient than trucks.

Because, in spite of roughly 150,000 miles of track, rail doesn't go
anywhere near all the places stuff needs to go to.

But it can go much of the way.


And, trains are only slightly more efficient than trucks for the
majority
of freight.

Where trains have the big edge is on heavy bulk stuff like coal,
lumber,
raw steel, etc.

They are less efficient for stuff like lettuce and iPods.



I beg to differ, and you've just stepped into territory that I know
something about!
My family were freight consolidators for many years. We did freight and
trucks. No way would we run a truck more than a couple of hundred miles.
Most of it was clothing., also toys, stuf like that. A lot of
lightweight crap for woolworths or JC Penney. high value stuff was
problematic because of theft, but there wasn't anything that was cheaper
to drive out by truck. Of course, labour was more expensive. Goods had
to be transferred from factory to consolidation and then offloaded, by
hand, from truck to boxcar, and then again at the other end) This sort
of transportation of goods became less popular for several reasons over
the years, but not because it was less energy efficient. It remains
popular in Europe and elsewhere, and is regaining some of the losses
it's made there in recent years. Carriage by airfreight is just nuts and
it's popularity has more to do with instant gratification than anything.
While some businesses absolutely have to have it the next day, of
course, mostly it's just Ebay crap being shifted form one attic to
another. 50,000 lbs of diesel to shift 50,000 lbs of freight 2500 miles?
Yow!


Bertie

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:15:01 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

My family were freight consolidators for many years. We did freight and
trucks. No way would we run a truck more than a couple of hundred miles.

Which is why UPS and most other shippers put trucks and containers on
trains.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodal_freight_transport

B A R R Y wrote in
:

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:15:01 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

My family were freight consolidators for many years. We did freight
and
trucks. No way would we run a truck more than a couple of hundred
miles.

Which is why UPS and most other shippers put trucks and containers on
trains.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodal_freight_transport




Yeah, we did Ro Ro too. Saves a lot of handling. Trains are a very under
utilised resource. Looks like they're coming back a bit, though..


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in :

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in news:7417d5-p8l.ln1
@mail.specsol.com:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote in news:1is5d5-uv9.ln1
@mail.specsol.com:

Jim Logajan wrote:
wrote:
LOCAL trucks, LOCAL trains, and LOCAL busses, but not
those
hauling
crap between cities, much less across the country.

Absent the invention of Mr. Fusion, there isn't going to
be
any
electric powered trucks hauling carrots from Fresno to
Chicago.

Ahem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_locomotive

Electric trains work in parts of Europe because a long haul
there
is what would be called just down the road in the US and for
local
transit such as the Bay Area Bart system.

What, a 2,000 mile long electric system is down the road?

Where is there an electric train system 2000 miles long?

Absent the invention of Mr. Fusion, there isn't going to be
any electric powered trains between LA and Omaha or even El
Paso.

Not with an attitude like that there isn't!

Attitude has nothing to do with it, it is economics.

Who is going to pay to string up and maintain the overhead wires
for
the 140,490 miles of freight railway in the US?


Same people that pays for everything, you.

And what would be the motivation to do this unless there was some
astounding breakthrough and electricity became esentially free?



Well, when it's cheaper than diesel.... That's what we're talking
about, I believe.

OK, so there is this astounding breakthrough and electricity becomes
essentially free and you electrify the roughly 150,000 miles of
freight railway.

That takes care of about 38% of the freight in terms of ton-miles.

Then all you have to do is electrify a couple of orders of magnitude
more highways and build electric trucks.

No I don't.


Then all you have to do is electrify all the roads between the rail
depots, distribution centers, and all the shops, stores, and
supermarkets.

Why would I do that?

You're the one advocating electric freight hauling, not me.

Don't be a MX.


If the astounding breakthrough occured, it would be far simpler and
cheaper to just synthesize diesel fuel with the electricity, which
isn't done now because the cost of the energy to do it is too high.


OK, now you're thinking.

Now?


--
Jim Pennino

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