So what happens when 100LL is gone anyway?

. So everything coming from abroad is seen as bad.

I am sitting here in front of my imported computer, sitting on my
imported chair, drinking my imported coffee, and not believing what I
am reading!

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that every stitch of clothing I
am wearing was imported too. When I drive to the end of the road to
fetch the newspaper (that is probably largely an American product) I
will be using an automobile that, while built in Maryland, bears a
foreign mark.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 02:46:05 GMT, Repo Man wrote:

Did you manage to comprehend ANYTHING I wrote?

I doubt that he did, because it was garbage. Ahistorical garbage.
Mindless, paranoid garbage.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

Thomas Borchert wrote in
:

Yes, but the American look at mileage is worlds apart from a European
look at mileage.


Europeans don't look at Mileage. They look at Kilometerage.

Judah wrote:

Europeans don't look at Mileage. They look at Kilometerage.

Actually, they look at Literage. Liters per 100 km, that is. But then,
last I checked my map, Great Britain was still European, too.

Stefan

AH! That's where you're wrong! The Brits do not consider themselves to be
part of Europe either geographically or politically. They are a seperate
and sovereign nation which just happens to adhere to the EU regulations. I
made the mistake when I first moved here of thinking I was in Europe. I was
quickly set straight.

Which leads to some funny anomolies here in the UK. Everything is metric
except for two measurements. Beer is still sold in pints (thank God for
that!). Road distance is still measured in miles but fuel is sold in
liters. Brits still talk about miles per gallon (Imperial, mind, not US)
but I've started thinking about gas economy in terms of miles per liter
because the math is easier. A bit bizarre but you soon get used to it.

You gotta love the quirkiness of this place!

Shawn

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Judah wrote:

Europeans don't look at Mileage. They look at Kilometerage.

Actually, they look at Literage. Liters per 100 km, that is. But then,
last I checked my map, Great Britain was still European, too.

Stefan

Peter Duniho wrote:


I've always wondered about the reasoning behind that as it just
doesn't make sense. In some cases when they first started this and
maybe even now, they reduced the ppm by actually increasing the total
amount produced.

I think you are mistaken there. Emissions are mesured in ppm, because
it's the only possible way, you can't collect the NOx from an exhaust
stream and put it on a scale. I believe the ppm-measurement is done by
gas chromatography. However, from the ppm and the total mass flow, you
can easily calculate the total weight of NOx emitted, and that is the
figure that has to be within certain limits to meet emissions standards,
as you can see he

http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/light.html

(Actually the limits are gramm-per-mile, but as the emissions test cycle
is a defined distance, this amounts to the same.)

Having said that, there are different emission gramm-per-mile figures
for different classes of vehicles, a light duty truck is allowed much
higher (absolute) emissions than a passcar for the same emission standard.

A test that measures absolute emissions would effectively be measuring the
fuel efficiency of the car, along with the usual emissions control hardware.
Instead, we have rules that require manufacturers to have a certain average
fuel efficiency across their sold product, with each one having to meet
specific relative emissions requirements.

the fuel consumption for a given test cycle is actually calculated from
the emission values, not measured by any sort of flow device. Yet the by
far strongest correlation is between CO2 and fuel consumption. The
correlation between emissions NOx, CO and HC (the unwanted stuff) and
fuel consumption is very weak. Differences in the behavior of combustion
and aftertreatment are much stronger between vehicles than an influence
of the fuel consumption. After all, the nasty stuff makes up for less
than 1% of the total mass flow. The correlation between CO2 and fuel
consumption on the other hand is so strong, that CO2 is used INSTEAD of
fuel consumption at least in Europe.

IMHO, the current system is actually pretty reasonable, and would be made
much more reasonable with the use of high gas taxes. That is, measuring
relative emissions ensures that all vehicles sold are playing at the same
level (ignoring for a moment that different limits are applied to different
vehicles ), while taxing gas consumption would directly relate to
emissions of pollutants.

In other words, testing emissions is not directly related to trying to limit
emissions. Rather, it's to ensure that all vehicles are producing about the
same amount of pollutants for a given amount of fuel consumed. Now if we
could just change the way fuel is consumed, we'd be in business.

We'd be if emissions levels were in ppm indeed. Still the main problem
would be, that you cannot account for different emission standards. If
you tax fuel in order to really tax the emissions behind it, you'd have
to fix different pump prices for LEV, LEVII, ULEV, which is just not
practical. (Of course you SHOULD increase fuel taxation nevertheless, to
bring the CO2 down...)

regards,
Friedrich

--
für reply bitte die offensichtliche Änderung an der Adresse vornehmen

Roger wrote:

You will find that many of our engines run rich to keep the combustion
temperature low and then have to pump air into the catalytic converter
so the excess can be burned.

I hope not :-)) That would be a sure way to burn out your catalyst.

Gasoline engines do run rich however at high load conditions, which are
not met during emission cycles. But the excess fuel turns into CO
instead of CO2 (thus burning more fuel with less O2) or even goes down
the exhaust pipe unburnt. Noone cares, at it will never be measured.
This is one of several reasons, why the ongoing tightening of emission
standards has become a joke by now.

The only conditions, when so called scondary air is pumped into the
(rich) exhaust is at fairly light loads during warmup. This is done to
get the catalyst to its operating temperature range more qickly.

At least a good portion of the reason for poorer mileage over here is
due to some specific anti-pollution measure.

There is a slight influence, but it's not a big deal.

regards,
Friedrich

--
für reply bitte die offensichtliche Änderung an der Adresse vornehmen

In article ,
says...
On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 02:46:05 GMT, Repo Man wrote:

Did you manage to comprehend ANYTHING I wrote?

I doubt that he did, because it was garbage. Ahistorical garbage.
Mindless, paranoid garbage.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com


I can see you disagreed with it. But maybe your child could do a better
job explaining why.

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 06:43:48 -0400, Cub Driver
wrote:


. So everything coming from abroad is seen as bad.

I am sitting here in front of my imported computer, sitting on my

Hey! My Computer is 100% American... well as much as GM, Ford, or
Chrysler.

The motherboard came from china, the drives from Taiwan, Singapore,
and Japan. HOWEVER the Silicon in most of the chips came from
Michigan. The RAW Silicon was made here. The poly crystal was
shipped to Taiwan where it was made into single crystal and then cut
into wafers. The chips? Mostly Japan and Taiwan although more and
more are coming from China. My Router (D-Link) was made in China,
along my Link-Sys stuff. I didn't find any networking components,
regardless of brand that weren't made in China.

BUT it was 100% assembled here. Right here in my den with no
outsourcing. Albeit the software comes from all over the world and the
US companies are importing programmers from India. Still it (there
are 4 of them) was assembled, configured, and put into operation here
in the US.

I don't think there is a TV set made in the US any more.

imported chair, drinking my imported coffee, and not believing what I
am reading!

I don't drink coffee!


I don't know for sure, but I suspect that every stitch of clothing I
am wearing was imported too.

Probably by child labor in sweat shops.

When I drive to the end of the road to
fetch the newspaper (that is probably largely an American product) I

But in a plastic Chinese mail box?
I actually have a steel, US manufactured mail box from US steel.
Of course it's flanked by one for the paper and one for the shopping
guide that are of Chinese plastic.

will be using an automobile that, while built in Maryland, bears a
foreign mark.

Even if you purchased an American brand car you will find many parts
in it came from other countries.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
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the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

wrote:
ISTR there's only one company that still makes TEL (I think it's in the
UK?) When they decide the cost isn't worth it, what then? Sure, the
lower HP Lyc's and Cont's can probably run mogas without issue, but the
higher HP turbo'd engines won't be so happy without lead. The FADEC mod
being developed by Aerosance might be a solution for some engines by
computerized ignition retarding, but that's not a cheap fix. Anyone
read anything more about the coming end of avgas?

Way past time to get rid of TEL. Nasty stuff, both on ourselves and on
the engines. Don't need it, there are other substances to boost
octane, and you can add a water injection system if requirements are
truely high.