Fly Boy ?????

Knowing that Bishop, a former NCAA swimming ace, had died in an H-46 in
the best shape of his life didn't tarnish my unshakeable faith that if I
survived impact, I would make it out of the water alive. (Or be found in
the
wreck with my hands around the pilot's neck.)

Best line of the thread.

Funny but probably true.

There were flights I wouldn't let my junior crewman take because I felt the
mixture of pilots on the flight was not safe. My junior crewman was married -
I wasn't. No frickin way I was facing Rhonda if Danny didn't make it back.
We had a truly scarey pilot, a berserk MO (also a pilot), and a pair of J.O.s
that were known to our detachment as the Terror Twins. These guys were like
oil and LOX - think "Bickersons" wearing helmets. I briefed Danny to always
fly with his pen flare out; in case the Twins killed him, I instructed him on
which pilot to

dammit. Rambling again. Sorry, guys.


Gordon
PS, for every crappy pilot, there is one you'd follow straight into hell if he
asked.

(Gordon) wrote:
Mike Marron wrote:

All I've heard so far is that you've been known to putter around
in a 65-hp Aeronca Champ from time to time.

That might be me as well. For people who don't mind bird strikes from behind,
the Champ can be a lot of fun. Rather be in a Grumman Tiger though..

I've got a couple hrs. in both. The Tiger is just "OK," but the Champ
is the doggiest piece of **** I've ever flown and if someone gave me
either one I'd immediately slap a "For Sale" sign on it and buy a 80
or 100-hp trike.

The next best thing to an F-16 and the most fun you can have with
your clothes on!

Bush's choice of silk or ditch. I would rather ditch than bale,

--cut--

I agree...we flew a lot of hours over the Atlantic, both North
and South and not a few over the Pacific as well, most of it
below 1000 feet

In P-3s, slamming along in the whiteout "somewhere" down close to the water...
or eating saltspray in the doorway of an H-2. Folks thought I was brain dead
to ask for H-2s, supposedly little killers, but my experiences in P-3s led me
to believe that in extremis, I had some control of my fate in a helo. While on
maritime patrol in a big Orion, I felt that I was one of the obliterati if we
ever crashed.

One doesn't want to imagine trying
to survive down there in a 40-50 knot gale with a continuous
expanse of whitecaps from horizon to horizon in all directions.

Or trying to do it alone, which is what happens if the crew bails out and gets
separated.


I'm sure that you can easily agree Gordon. shudder

frickin a. I'm picturing the Sea of Ohkotsk at the moment - always just a few
feet away, waiting with its cold embrace.

They had been planting a field of sonobuoys (about mid Atlantic)
when one stuck in it's chute halfway out. It went just far enough
to uncover the vanes which, being dragged along at ~170 Knots
spun at a great rate till the bolt holding the hub on wore off
and the vanes spun up into the a/c belly, slashed through the
skin and cut off a torque tube used to control the elevators.

Gotta love those rotochutes. We launched buoys horizontally, out of a box
pinned to the fuselage floor against the back of our seats - with a CAD (16
little gunpowder charges each the size of your fist) about a foot behind our
backs. BA-A-M - thick smell of cordite. Look out the window of my station and
see a 3-foot cylinder packed with sensitive sonar equipment falling away toward
the water 200 feet below. But wait - this one doesn't have the familiar white
parachute,
its OH CRAP, ITS ONE OF THOSE POSSESSED THINGS! We are flying along with a
"friend", a well-wound up rotochute sonobuoy (SSQ-36 if you're interested) that
had caught some bizarre lift and, buzzing like a hornet, it shot past below us
at an angle that made it look as if it was trying to clip our tail.

mutters "You've killed us, you arrogant ass!"

"What, SENSO?"

"Nothing sir. Buoy in the water, up and sweet."

This caused no end of concern to the cockpit crew who all had
suggestions ranging from "Putter in the water" to "head West"
(home) to "head for Lajes" (closest land) and several other
wildassed suggestions.

That was my job on the crew. In a Star Trek universe, I would be the guy
killed before the opening credits.

Anyway, it was decided to head (gently) for Lajes (good l o n g runway, plus
good wx etc). The crew experimented with flaps and power to replace the
function of the elevators (cautiously). Anyway they had a nearly uneventful
landing at the Azores.
(albeit with quite tired sphincters)

doubtless.

My point is that only the crew involved has enough facts to make
the decision required about the best course to take. That's why
the buck stops at the Crew Captain's seat. It certainly doesn't
preclude the rest of the crew making suggestions nor him using
(or not) any/all of them (CRM) but the FINAL decision must be his
alone.

My advice was not usually taken. LOL "Aim for the bridge of that carrier
if we can't make it back to our own ship, but don't just GIVE the Soviets our
helo!" [Two helmeted face turn to face me, as if I was an alien or
something...?]

G

Sorry to hear that, Jack. Would you mind stating his name here? I am one
of
the people who believe that as long as a person's name is remembered, a
piece
of them stays with us. Sounds to me like he deserves to be remembered 'out
loud'.

Donald Conaway, Lt., USN

Lt. Conaway -fair winds and following seas.

v/r
Gordon

That might be me as well. For people who don't mind bird strikes from
behind,
the Champ can be a lot of fun. Rather be in a Grumman Tiger though..

I've got a couple hrs. in both. The Tiger is just "OK," but the Champ
is the doggiest piece of **** I've ever flown

ouch! ouch! heyyyy, don't make fun of the plane that taught me I didn't
need an instructor onboard.

and if someone gave me
either one I'd immediately slap a "For Sale" sign on it and buy a 80
or 100-hp trike.

Think about it though - you could stick it on your roof as the perfect
weathervane and use the engine in your lawn mower.

G

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: (Peter Stickney)
Date: 10/23/03 9:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: rhaanb-9f1.ln@Minesha

Note to Art: The Martin B-26 also wasn't a good candidate for
ditching, either.

No kiddiing. We had 30 seconds before the B-26 dove for the the bottom. Those
of us who served in B-26's were well aware of that as proven in ditching tanks.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: nt (Gordon)
Date: 10/23/03 10:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

When a pilot survives and loses
his crew there will always be questions.

harsh glare of reality there, but its true. In this case however, one of the
backseaters did get out - so Bush, in my view, stayed with the a/c long
enough;
from the pilots seat, he could not have known the status of his crew but
stayed
in well past the other unsuccessful bailout.

Art, I get what you are saying - that its a fact that 'sole survivors' get a
stink eye when they are supposedly the last guy to go down with the ship.
When
a hazardous job specialty requires a person to give 100% of their faith to
someone else while they take often mortal chances with their hide, a certain
amount of trust must exist - you have to know that the driver isn't going to
simply bail out and leave you hanging!

Those who flew aircrew, backseaters,
gunners etc seem to understand that and raise questions of their own. But
those who flew alone without aircrew (fighter pilots) or those who never
flew
at all may never understand the concerns of aircrew.

I think there is a note of truth there. Similar to the partnership between
firecrews or police patrols, the 'non driver' would always at least wonder if
two go out, one come back. I know its not a popular view - but what Art said
about that is true. As for judging GHW Bush's actions over Chichi Jima? I
think every time you read an accident report you make a sort of judgement -
at
least I do. Usually, at some point in the first page, I am thinking, "What a
moron." So Monday morning QB practice is nothing new when its a famous
person,
like when JFK Jr. crashed, to look at the reported facts and comment. Its
human nature.

To restate: in this case, I'm ok with Bush's actions and I say that as one of
those backseaters that would at least wonder what happened. He was shot down
in combat, with two fatalities due to enemy action. Bush kept an aircraft in
the air after being hit over the target, guiding it further out from the
island
than any of the other a/c that were lost on those strikes. Those g.i.b. knew
they were in a bird that was a mother to bail out of - they knew their
chances,
just like all those poor saps in TBDs, and B-26s and all the rest. Sucks that
they didn't make it, but they carried the fight forward.

v/r
Gordon

====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."


Good post Gordon. I think that only those of us that flew as aircrew can
really fully understand the situation. All others are out of the loop.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: nt (Gordon)
Date: 10/23/03 10:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

Knowing that Bishop, a former NCAA swimming ace, had died in an H-46 in
the best shape of his life didn't tarnish my unshakeable faith that if I
survived impact, I would make it out of the water alive. (Or be found in
the
wreck with my hands around the pilot's neck.)

Best line of the thread.

Funny but probably true.

There were flights I wouldn't let my junior crewman take because I felt the
mixture of pilots on the flight was not safe. My junior crewman was married
-
I wasn't. No frickin way I was facing Rhonda if Danny didn't make it back.
We had a truly scarey pilot, a berserk MO (also a pilot), and a pair of J.O.s
that were known to our detachment as the Terror Twins. These guys were like
oil and LOX - think "Bickersons" wearing helmets. I briefed Danny to always
fly with his pen flare out; in case the Twins killed him, I instructed him
on
which pilot to

dammit. Rambling again. Sorry, guys.


Gordon
PS, for every crappy pilot, there is one you'd follow straight into hell if
he
asked.


Watch that stuff Gordon. You might be attacked for having attacked the "worrior
class".whatever the hell that is. (sheesh)

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: Mike Marron
Date: 10/23/03 10:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote:
Mike Marron wrote:

terback after all these years
is to demean the whole warrior ethic. The fact that you have chosen
to conveniently ignore his pointed comments aimed squarely at
YOU is duly noted, BTW.

Anyone is free to note whatever they like.And I am free to reject their
position as they are free to reject mine.

Very well, then. It's unfortunate indeed that instead of wisely
joining Ed and the rest of us whom have seized the high road,
you've chosen to wallow around down in the mud.


As I understand it Art is the only one in this NG that actually flew combat in
WWII as aircrew.So I will take his view above all those that never flew as
aircrew in WW II. As far as wallowing in the mud goes, look to yourself.

"Mike Marron" wrote in message


And one of your brothers and highly respected posters on this
NG who actually fought in another war has succinctly explained to you
that playing Monday Morning Quarterback after all these years
is to demean the whole warrior ethic. The fact that you have chosen
to conveniently ignore his pointed comments aimed squarely at
YOU is duly noted, BTW.

Mike, Art's rabid partisanship won't let him see past this. If Bush had
been a supply-side democrat, Art would be on the other side of this
argument, no doubt.

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