In wave, in blue hole at cloud level, hole closes, in IMC, then what?

On 4/17/2015 10:30 AM, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Friday, April 17, 2015 at 10:49:38 AM UTC-4, Bob Whelan wrote:

IMC is serious stuff...with or without the proper instrumentation and
training.

IMC is just part of the picture.

1.I'm starting to think that IMC training, currency, and installed
instrumentation is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for me to fly
in wave (especially wet wave).

But there're other factors:

2.Ability to recover from upset induced by turbulence and/or IMC
disorientation. (aka Upset Recovery Training)

3.A glider that is less likely to shed it's wings with the spoilers open
and a negative load factor.

4.Readiness to bail out and acceptance of the increased probability of a
bail-out in cold, high altitude and turbulent air. Training and confidence
in parachuting ability.

5.Ability and instrumentation to descend through IMC without colliding with
terrain.

6.Preparedness and willingness to land out well downwind of the departure
airport and possibly land in the trees.

All of these factors are relevant in non-wave soaring as well, but the
probabilities are less favorable in wave.

No pun intended - "Spot on!"

Bob W.

Snips...

IMC is serious stuff...with or without the proper instrumentation and
training.

IMC is just part of the picture.

1.I'm starting to think that IMC training, currency, and installed
instrumentation is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for me to fly
in wave (especially wet wave).

But there're other factors:

2.Ability to recover from upset induced by turbulence and/or IMC
disorientation. (aka Upset Recovery Training)

3.A glider that is less likely to shed it's wings with the spoilers open
and a negative load factor.

4.Readiness to bail out and acceptance of the increased probability of a
bail-out in cold, high altitude and turbulent air. Training and confidence
in parachuting ability.

5.Ability and instrumentation to descend through IMC without colliding with
terrain.

6.Preparedness and willingness to land out well downwind of the departure
airport and possibly land in the trees.

All of these factors are relevant in non-wave soaring as well, but the
probabilities are less favorable in wave.

Again...right you are!

Maybe I was lucky, or, I'm more cowardly than many (I prefer to think of it as
having an active imagination!), but the very first gliding book I found in the
library after learning of the sport from my first after-collich-officemate was
Joe Lincoln's "Soaring for Diamonds." In my cowardly ignorance, his tales of
his cu-nim-IMC attempts to snag his altitude diamond, thoroughly intimidated
me. One of my next soaring books was 'Old Dog' Wolters's "Once Upon a Thermal"
(in which a pilot dies in "your wave").

Both are great books.

The only time I've felt "entirely comfortable" looking for 18k wave was in a
large-deflection-landing-flap-equipped ship with two entirely independent O2
systems. That said, most of my time in Colorado's essentially/mostly dry
waves, has been in a (similarly-flap-equipped) ship with but one (pressure
demand) O2 system, and - though I once (maybe twice) went above FL30 level in
it - I soon decided FL25 was plenty high enough under the circumstances, and
when Denver ARTCC began to require "IFR-like" radio contact in the wave
window, had no serious regrets self-limiting myself thereafter to below
18,000' feet.

So put me in the category who believes: "Flight to altitudes where additional
life-support systems are physiologically *required* (as distinct from merely
"probably a Really Good Idea independent of FAA regulations"), is Serious
Stuff...even without the possibility of inadvertent IMC.

Bob W.

All the below is true. I am an IFR rated pilot with IFR privileges in single and multi-engine airplane and helicopter (kind of rare). AS I said very early in this thread have a plan that you developed with an instructor, get an instant on AH, get some IFR training in a powered aircraft every year control (straight AND level, turns..) and unusual attitude recovery, don't bother with departures and approaches) and you will give yourself a good chance of staying in control for a few minutes, maybe enough to get out of the cloud. There is a reason IFR privileges do not apply one rating for all aircraft. Note there is no IFR rating for gliders. Hope for the best, plan for the worst, which is why I always dress to egress also.


stay safe and never stop thinking about what if...

On Friday, April 17, 2015 at 9:30:39 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Friday, April 17, 2015 at 10:49:38 AM UTC-4, Bob Whelan wrote:

IMC is serious stuff...with or without the proper instrumentation and
training.

IMC is just part of the picture.

1.I'm starting to think that IMC training, currency, and installed instrumentation is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for me to fly in wave (especially wet wave).

But there're other factors:

2.Ability to recover from upset induced by turbulence and/or IMC disorientation. (aka Upset Recovery Training)

3.A glider that is less likely to shed it's wings with the spoilers open and a negative load factor.

4.Readiness to bail out and acceptance of the increased probability of a bail-out in cold, high altitude and turbulent air. Training and confidence in parachuting ability.

5.Ability and instrumentation to descend through IMC without colliding with terrain.

6.Preparedness and willingness to land out well downwind of the departure airport and possibly land in the trees.

All of these factors are relevant in non-wave soaring as well, but the probabilities are less favorable in wave.

It sounds as though deliberate cloud flying of gliders is much more common in the UK and some other European countries than where most of you fly. Hitherto no special rating has been required in the UK but a glider cloud flying rating has recently been introduced and may be required in due course for any glider flight not under vfr. Equipping gliders with A-H's is routine, most newer ones now being equipped with instant on electronic devices (In many cases, internal to flight computers).

On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 12:36:48 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Kind of off topic but not really, can you still purchase a boli (spelling?) compass?

Bohli is a nice compass no doubt. But no subst for real AH. my 2 cents.

On Friday, April 17, 2015 at 9:45:57 PM UTC-4, waremark wrote:
It sounds as though deliberate cloud flying of gliders is much more common in the UK

What do you think of depending on basic IFR training in Single Engine Light aircraft as preparation for inadvertent emergency cloud flying in a glider?

Does anyone in the UK offer glider cloud flying training for visiting USA licensed glider pilots?

Latest Easa regulation calls for 2 hrs instruction for glider cloud flying rating (plus theory). Previously our national rating required 5 hrs instruction and even that did not feel like too much. Cloud flying is quite common in UK, Eastern Europe and Scandinavia, i think.

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 03:57:30 -0700, son_of_flubber wrote:

Does anyone in the UK offer glider cloud flying training for visiting
USA licensed glider pilots?

I don't know about the situation for visiting pilots at my club but then
again I don't think any have asked. I have no idea how you'd get the
cloud flying rating added to an American license or whether it would be
recognised by the FAA.

Some of our instructors are teaching cloud flying in our Schreibe SF-25
in preparation the introduction of EASA licensing. There is a BGA cloud
flying qualification which is not currently required, but its worth
getting prior to EASA licensing because it will be grandfathered onto the
EASA license: getting it after the license is issued will incur a charge
for adding the rating.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

While the training you could get in the UK would be of benefit if you
"inadvertently" get caught in cloud, you still could not legally fly a
glider in clouds in the US. Note that if the FAA learned that you'd
been caught in a cloud, they could very well take certificate action
against you for violating cloud clearance regulations.

Note further that to fly in clouds in the US the pilot has to have an
instrument rating and there is no such thing for gliders in the US. The
aircraft also has to be certified for flight in IMC which includes such
mundane things as a certified attitude indicator, altimeter, gyro
compass (maybe), pitot/static checks, etc.

Training would be helpful if you remain unaware of your surroundings but
I maintain that part of being pilot in command is being sure that that
doesn't happen. Having said that, I have a TruTrac mounted in my panel
and have a boat load of training and actual IMC flying and I still
wouldn't give myself a 100% chance of coming out the bottom or side of a
cloud in straight and level flight given the circumstances that started
this thread.

Good flying!

On 4/18/2015 7:02 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 03:57:30 -0700, son_of_flubber wrote:

Does anyone in the UK offer glider cloud flying training for visiting
USA licensed glider pilots?
I don't know about the situation for visiting pilots at my club but then
again I don't think any have asked. I have no idea how you'd get the
cloud flying rating added to an American license or whether it would be
recognised by the FAA.

Some of our instructors are teaching cloud flying in our Schreibe SF-25
in preparation the introduction of EASA licensing. There is a BGA cloud
flying qualification which is not currently required, but its worth
getting prior to EASA licensing because it will be grandfathered onto the
EASA license: getting it after the license is issued will incur a charge
for adding the rating.



--
Dan Marotta

You have already had a couple of sensible replies. It is early days in terms of formalised regulation and training for cloud flying in the UK. My club plans to offer suitable training in a motor glider but has not yet started to do so. In a year or two there may be better defined training programmes..

Up to now, pilots who cloud fly have generally been self taught, learning by trial and error. I wonder what you understand by 'basic IFR training?' I have an IMC rating for my single engine PPL - a low level rating for flying in IMC, which you can get after 15 hours flight training and practical and written tests. The tests include partial panel recovery from unusual attitudes. This was sufficient to get me grandfather rights for the future EASA cloud flying requirements. It was also sufficient to make me comfortably able to thermal in cloud with the benefit of a an A-H. However, when I do so I know that I am vulnerable to not having the resilience or redundancy of instrumentation required for powered flight in IMC. My backup plan for loss of control or instrumentation is to open the air brakes before the speed gets high.