Sectional use

Mxsmanic,

I did some flying last night with just a chart and VORs.

No, you didn't.

It has been
a long time and it made me a bit nervous.

You've really got a problem.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

"Kev" wrote

This whole scenario is a stretch. It's not gonna happen and even if it
did,
I doubt that it would be much more than a temporary inconvenience.

Well, first you claimed GPS couldn't be spoofed, so you were wrong
there.

I believe I said it wasn't practical - meaning from the standpoint of being
done by a terrorist (note that they typically use low-tech approaches to
everything). Yes, the military has done it - I don't believe anyone else
has been successful at fooling an airborne GPS.

And sure,
those with GPS use it to help stay away from them. Don't you? Or
are you in the flatlands?

I have flown all over the US and Canada. I have never relied on a GPS to
keep me from flying into a mountain in VFR weather.

Now you claim CFIT's couldn't happen if it was spoofed. I
politely disagree. Heck, even without GPS being screwed up, near
CFITs are damned common. In my neck of the woods, I think that
spoofing GPS could easily cause accidents.

OK - it seems that the focus of this keeps changing. If you are on an IFR
approach, you have several other resources that will work to prevent you
from running into the ground if the GPS signal is taking you somewhere other
than the airport, beginning with ATC as you first begin the approach and you
hear a polite "where do you think you are going?". If you are talking about
VFR on moonless nights, well, again IMO it's a stretch. I've done plenty of
VFR flying at night and I never had to rely solely on a GPS or any other nav
gear to keep me from running into the ground.

BDS

Kev,

Heck, even without GPS being screwed up, near
CFITs are damned common.


Say what? I'd like to see numbers supporting that statement.

There is no such thing as a regular terrain avoidance (in normal
flying, not emergencies) based on GPS. It is based on altitudes flown
and on approach/departure procedures designed for terrain avoidance.
Those procedures are based on all kinds of navaids.


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

On Jan 30, 8:37 am, Thomas Borchert
wrote:
Kev,

Heck, even without GPS being screwed up, near
CFITs are damned common.

Say what? I'd like to see numbers supporting that statement.

I don't think there's such a thing as official numbers, nor could
there be. Who would admit to it?

Read the ASRS reports I linked to. I was surprised myself. And
that's just from people who feel the need to submit one, which is
mostly airline pilots.

There is no such thing as a regular terrain avoidance (in normal
flying, not emergencies) based on GPS. It is based on altitudes flown
and on approach/departure procedures designed for terrain avoidance.
Those procedures are based on all kinds of navaids.

Sure. But I like night VFR flying, so my perspective is from that
angle. I'm not under ATC, so they're no help. I'm not always able
to see mountains or clouds. A few seconds of lostness can be quite
dangerous. Relying on a spoofed GPS could be deadly. So I don't.

Everyone seems to be fixated on airliners, big airport approaches,
etc. Yet there are GA instrument pilots who admit relying almost
totally on GPS for position awareness on approaches to podunk
airports. I'm saying that the latter obviously could be vulnerable to
spoofing. Not all of them, just some. YMMV.

Kev

Mxsmanic wrote:

I did some flying last night with just a chart and VORs. It has been
a long time and it made me a bit nervous. But nothing compared to not
having navaids at all.

Using a chart and VORs made you nervous in your sim? You really need to see
if the Doctor will up your meds.

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in message
...
Mxsmanic wrote:

I did some flying last night with just a chart and VORs. It has been
a long time and it made me a bit nervous. But nothing compared to not
having navaids at all.

Using a chart and VORs made you nervous in your sim? You really need to
see if the Doctor will up your meds.
I hope he isn't watching "Creature Features" on Friday night, in the
dark....alone.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Newps writes:

You don't remove reliable IFR navigation by screwing with the GPS system.

You do if it depends on GPS.

No, you do not.

Recently, Kev posted:

On Jan 30, 8:37 am, Thomas Borchert
wrote:

There is no such thing as a regular terrain avoidance (in normal
flying, not emergencies) based on GPS. It is based on altitudes flown
and on approach/departure procedures designed for terrain avoidance.
Those procedures are based on all kinds of navaids.

Sure. But I like night VFR flying, so my perspective is from that
angle. I'm not under ATC, so they're no help. I'm not always able
to see mountains or clouds. A few seconds of lostness can be quite
dangerous. Relying on a spoofed GPS could be deadly. So I don't.

As long as you stay above the max obstacle height on your sectional, you
shouldn't have to worry about terrain avoidance. If you're into night VFR
scud running, that's another matter entirely, and should be discussed with
your shrink. ;-)

Everyone seems to be fixated on airliners, big airport approaches,
etc. Yet there are GA instrument pilots who admit relying almost
totally on GPS for position awareness on approaches to podunk
airports. I'm saying that the latter obviously could be vulnerable to
spoofing. Not all of them, just some. YMMV.

Well, there's position awareness, and there's terrain avoidance. I doubt
that there are a lot of pilots that would fly IFR minimums into an airport
without a GPS approach. OTOH, using the GPS to get you into the vacinity
of the podunk airport and using standard VFR approach procedures after
that is pretty reasonable. If someone could spoof the system (I'm not
convinced that the effort would be worth it) I would think, though that
there would be many clues that something was wrong long before it became
critical. For example, the GPS indicates that you're flying over a city,
but all you can see outside is black.

Neil

Neil,

As long as you stay above the max obstacle height on your sectional, you
shouldn't have to worry about terrain avoidance.


Exactly right.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

On Jan 30, 11:29 pm, Thomas Borchert
wrote:
Mxsmanic,

I did some flying last night with just a chart and VORs.

No, you didn't.

It has been
a long time and it made me a bit nervous.

You've really got a problem.

I wonder if he does any 'hood' time to stay current
ROTFL