The Differences Between PPLicensing And Learning

On Mar 7, 5:27*pm, WJRFlyBoy wrote:
Which is the crux of the Subject of the thread. This is exactly what I am
finding, the PPL standards don't license you to do perform in the manner
you describe, Michael. On this we agree. Fine, then what, where and how do
you get the learning necessary to do so?

Fair enough question. There is even an answer.

First off, I'll tell you what the answer is not. It's not to be found
in extra attention paid to passing the FAA written tests (they are of
little value, and at the 95% score they are as much about learning
pointless trivia and answers to trick questions as they are about
learning anything useful) and it's really not found in practicing with
the flight sim (which is a useful adjunct to learning to fly,
especially when it comes to instruments, but does not really cover the
things that won't be covered in your training). It's certainly not
found by buying gadgets.

The answer comes in finding a mentor - someone who has been where you
are, is now where you are going, and can show you the way. I know of
no other path.

In an ideal world, that mentor would be your flight instructor. That
probably isn't going to happen. Very few pilots who routinely use
airplanes for practical transportation ever become flight instructors,
and I can count on my fingers the ones I know (and that includes the
ones posting here) who are available to the walk-in primary student at
the FBO. Most will only be available if you have or can arrange for
an airplane, or by some special arrangement - one you are unlikely to
be able to make unless you are well plugged into the local general
aviation scene.

You can take a shot at finding the sort of instructor who could be
your mentor (look for someone who owns an airplane that he uses for
routine all-weather travel first and foremost) but like I said, you
are unlikely to succeed. Or you can take what you get, solo (or even
get your license), and start hanging around the airport with the
owners, looking for a plane to buy (you can pretty much forget doing
any serious travel as a renter). People will come out of the
woodwork, and then you will find your mentor. He will tell you what
you REALLY need to learn, and will likely be able to teach you.

There are good books you can read too - but they're not going to mean
much without a basis in actual experience. I recommend Bach (Stranger
to the Ground, Biplane, Nothing by Chance), Lindbergh (Spirit of St.
Louis), Imeson (Mountain Flying, Mountain Flying Bible), Robert Buck
(Weather Flying), and Rinker Buck (Flight of Passage). I'm sure there
are other good ones I can't think of at the moment. I can't really
think of any book I would recommend for someone who has never flown.
Lots of people rave about Langewiesche (Stick and Rudder) but I can't
say I'm really impressed with it. On the other hand, I don't know of
anything better to recommend - and given that it's now half a century
old, that in itself is saying something.

One of the ways I am pursuing this is an highly active academic one, it
would premise that the more one knows the better decisions can be made as
to what needs learning.

This is a pretty decent assumption in an academic environment, largely
because of the peer review process. Stuff generally gets peer
reviewed both before publication (formally) and after (informally),
and the trash doesn't stick around. There is precious little peer
review in general aviation. There simply are not good books about how
to effectively use a light aircraft as reliable transportation. The
vast majority of training material is focused on commercial aviation,
military aviation, or passing exams. What little is left is generally
not peer reviewed in any way, is often wildly inaccurate, and
basically has all the problems of usenet - other than spam, poor
grammar/spelling/style, and personal attacks. On the other hand, it
is often out of date - see above.

I find new PPL, and in email commo with posters on
RAS/RAP they many have had disastrous lapses in their educations, they
simply did not know what was actually required to obtain the freedom you
have suggested "know enough to go where you want to go, when you want to go
there, on an average day."

And now they know more. Or think they do. On usenet, nobody knows
who you are. Of course that's not really true. Anyone with a shred
of 'net savvy can easily pierce the veil of so-called anonymity,
especially where it concerns those of us who have been here for a long
time, but that's not terribly helpful. With a name and a general
location, you could use the FAA database and figure out what kind of
aircraft we own and what kind of certificates we hold. That tells you
very little about what kind of pilot you're dealing with. Sure,
you'll get the occasional weirdie - like a guy expounding on the
differences between visual and instrument flying who doesn't even have
an instrument rating, or expounding on the proper way to teach Vmc
demos when his own multi rating is limited to centerline thrust - but
mostly people have ratings appropriate to what they are discussing or
clearly state they do not. What you will never get except by personal
knowledge is which guy is known for bending airplanes (I know at least
two who managed to have four wrecks without accumulating 1000 hours -
and one of them was a CFI and an aviation safety counselor), which guy
routinely gets stuck because he never developed the skills to handle
any but the most benign weather, and which guy really does use his
airplane for transportation and has survived real emergencies in real
weather. For that, you need to get out to an airport and meet
people. Then you hang out, look around, decide what kind of pilot you
want to be like, and ask him (or her) what he wishes he had known
starting out, what kind of reading, training, experience, etc. he
recommends - and do that.

Now go and do it.

Michael

WJRFlyBoy wrote:
On Thu, 6 Mar 2008 05:37:47 -0800 (PST), Michael wrote:

It's impossible and stupid to assume you need to "know everything"
before you can safely fly. Should you know some? Of course. Must you
know all? Obviously not, as none of us currently flying do, and
somehow we survived to this point.
Of course "know everything" is an impossible standard. But you ought
to know enough to go where you want to go, when you want to go there,
on an average day. That generally doesn't happen.

Which is the crux of the Subject of the thread. This is exactly what I am
finding, the PPL standards don't license you to do perform in the manner
you describe, Michael. On this we agree. Fine, then what, where and how do
you get the learning necessary to do so?

One of the ways I am pursuing this is an highly active academic one, it
would premise that the more one knows the better decisions can be made as
to what needs learning. I find new PPL, and in email commo with posters on
RAS/RAP they many have had disastrous lapses in their educations, they
simply did not know what was actually required to obtain the freedom you
have suggested "know enough to go where you want to go, when you want to go
there, on an average day."

After reading some of the exchanges back to you on this issue I'd like
to offer you a slightly different opinion if I may.
As relates to the quality of information you might find right here on
this forum the following;
Usenet of course has its good and bad information sources, but most
pilots (including yourself I'm sure) are quite capable of wading through
the BS and latching on to the "good stuff".
It doesn't take very long or a great deal of research to discover just
who knows what they are talking about on these groups and who doesn't.
There are many...and I repeat MANY fine pilots and instructors who post
right here on these forums, and can be a virtual wealth of good
information once you learn a bit about who's who and who actually knows
what.
BTW, I'm an instructor who has a center thrust rating, (my area of
expertise is primary instruction and aerobatics only ) and in the 11,800
unpaid posts I've made on this forum offering help and free advice to
new pilots, I don't believe I have ever attempted to "instruct" someone
on Vmc demonstrations. :-)
As I said, there are many very good pilots and instructors who post
here. Just read carefully, do some research, and the good data will
separate itself from the chaff in no time.
If I can ever be of any help to you, please don't hesitate to ask.

--
Dudley Henriques

On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 13:07:02 -0700 (PDT), Michael wrote:

The answer comes in finding a mentor - someone who has been where you
are, is now where you are going, and can show you the way. I know of
no other path.

In an ideal world, that mentor would be your flight instructor. That
probably isn't going to happen.

You're right there, so far this hasn't happened.

Very few pilots who routinely use
airplanes for practical transportation ever become flight instructors,
and I can count on my fingers the ones I know (and that includes the
ones posting here) who are available to the walk-in primary student at
the FBO. Most will only be available if you have or can arrange for
an airplane, or by some special arrangement - one you are unlikely to
be able to make unless you are well plugged into the local general
aviation scene.

I got lucky, hanging out at Marco Island, one of the new DayJet pilots had
a turnaround down to Key West and back to Immakolee. Was picking up a
business friend, left my car keys and a "I'm sorry" note. lol Right seat,
lotsa hands/feets on time; it had been 30 years since I was flying
regularly (sans license) where I had over 300 hours on a Baron 55. One time
thing though with the DayJet guy.

You can take a shot at finding the sort of instructor who could be
your mentor (look for someone who owns an airplane that he uses for
routine all-weather travel first and foremost) but like I said, you
are unlikely to succeed. Or you can take what you get, solo (or even
get your license), and start hanging around the airport with the
owners, looking for a plane to buy (you can pretty much forget doing
any serious travel as a renter). People will come out of the
woodwork, and then you will find your mentor. He will tell you what
you REALLY need to learn, and will likely be able to teach you.

This is very good advice and true to your word, I've met more potential
mentor's this way and potential partners. I'm hoping to get lucky and find
a both in one.

Thx.
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:28:03 -0400, Dudley Henriques wrote:

One of the ways I am pursuing this is an highly active academic one, it
would premise that the more one knows the better decisions can be made as
to what needs learning. I find new PPL, and in email commo with posters on
RAS/RAP they many have had disastrous lapses in their educations, they
simply did not know what was actually required to obtain the freedom you
have suggested "know enough to go where you want to go, when you want to go
there, on an average day."

After reading some of the exchanges back to you on this issue I'd like
to offer you a slightly different opinion if I may.
As relates to the quality of information you might find right here on
this forum the following;
Usenet of course has its good and bad information sources, but most
pilots (including yourself I'm sure) are quite capable of wading through
the BS and latching on to the "good stuff".
It doesn't take very long or a great deal of research to discover just
who knows what they are talking about on these groups and who doesn't.
There are many...and I repeat MANY fine pilots and instructors who post
right here on these forums, and can be a virtual wealth of good
information once you learn a bit about who's who and who actually knows
what.

So Mx The Manic stays in my killfile Got it.

BTW, I'm an instructor who has a center thrust rating, (my area of
expertise is primary instruction and aerobatics only ) and in the 11,800
unpaid posts I've made on this forum offering help and free advice to
new pilots, I don't believe I have ever attempted to "instruct" someone
on Vmc demonstrations. :-)
As I said, there are many very good pilots and instructors who post
here. Just read carefully, do some research, and the good data will
separate itself from the chaff in no time.
If I can ever be of any help to you, please don't hesitate to ask.

--
Dudley Henriques

I won't and the offer is much appreciated, Dudley. Two things back for you:

One, your reputation precedes you, more than one emailer has told me you
are open to off Usenet advice.

Two, I understand (somewhat) your frustrations with Usenet, keep reminding
yourself that the best you have to give you may have already given. The
archives are, imo, as good, in ways better, tools of goodwill. You have
several lifetimes already compiled there and if you drop your pants a
little lower, I'll kiss the bottom of your butt too.
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

WJRFlyBoy wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:28:03 -0400, Dudley Henriques wrote:

One of the ways I am pursuing this is an highly active academic one, it
would premise that the more one knows the better decisions can be made as
to what needs learning. I find new PPL, and in email commo with posters on
RAS/RAP they many have had disastrous lapses in their educations, they
simply did not know what was actually required to obtain the freedom you
have suggested "know enough to go where you want to go, when you want to go
there, on an average day."
After reading some of the exchanges back to you on this issue I'd like
to offer you a slightly different opinion if I may.
As relates to the quality of information you might find right here on
this forum the following;
Usenet of course has its good and bad information sources, but most
pilots (including yourself I'm sure) are quite capable of wading through
the BS and latching on to the "good stuff".
It doesn't take very long or a great deal of research to discover just
who knows what they are talking about on these groups and who doesn't.
There are many...and I repeat MANY fine pilots and instructors who post
right here on these forums, and can be a virtual wealth of good
information once you learn a bit about who's who and who actually knows
what.

So Mx The Manic stays in my killfile Got it.

BTW, I'm an instructor who has a center thrust rating, (my area of
expertise is primary instruction and aerobatics only ) and in the 11,800
unpaid posts I've made on this forum offering help and free advice to
new pilots, I don't believe I have ever attempted to "instruct" someone
on Vmc demonstrations. :-)
As I said, there are many very good pilots and instructors who post
here. Just read carefully, do some research, and the good data will
separate itself from the chaff in no time.
If I can ever be of any help to you, please don't hesitate to ask.

--
Dudley Henriques

I won't and the offer is much appreciated, Dudley. Two things back for you:

One, your reputation precedes you, more than one emailer has told me you
are open to off Usenet advice.

Two, I understand (somewhat) your frustrations with Usenet, keep reminding
yourself that the best you have to give you may have already given. The
archives are, imo, as good, in ways better, tools of goodwill. You have
several lifetimes already compiled there and if you drop your pants a
little lower, I'll kiss the bottom of your butt too.
Thanks for the kind word. FWIW, I learned a long time ago that lowering
my pants to get my butt kissed on Usenet usually resulted in my falling
flat on my ugly puss :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:


Thanks for the kind word. FWIW, I learned a long time ago that
lowering my pants to get my butt kissed on Usenet usually resulted in
my falling flat on my ugly puss :-))

At the very least.


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:


Thanks for the kind word. FWIW, I learned a long time ago that
lowering my pants to get my butt kissed on Usenet usually resulted in
my falling flat on my ugly puss :-))

At the very least.


Bertie



It's a talent :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in news:deudncWS8fi-
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:


Thanks for the kind word. FWIW, I learned a long time ago that
lowering my pants to get my butt kissed on Usenet usually resulted in
my falling flat on my ugly puss :-))

At the very least.


Bertie



It's a talent :-))I don't think I'll be lowering my pants around here,
thank you very much!


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in news:deudncWS8fi-
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:


Thanks for the kind word. FWIW, I learned a long time ago that
lowering my pants to get my butt kissed on Usenet usually resulted in
my falling flat on my ugly puss :-))
At the very least.


Bertie


It's a talent :-))I don't think I'll be lowering my pants around here,
thank you very much!


Bertie


:-))

--
Dudley Henriques

On Mar 1, 2:48 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:

When you look at flight training as this never ending learning curve I'm
describing to you here, you might begin to see that it's not getting
through the program that will keep you alive in the air, but what you
RETAIN and form into HABIT PATTERNS that is the important factor.

After getting a PPL and flying for a couple of years, I can see why
Dudley is correct. Those habit patterns you learn early in your
flying training WILL save your life, I guarantee it. Flying is like
life, you are always learning how to do it while never truly mastering
it.