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#131
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On 3/15/04 6:15 AM, in article ,
"Ben Flewett" wrote: ...[Schumacher's and Barrichello's] 'Mine is bigger than yours' attitude is ruining Formula One [and] John Coutts' (top ranked glider pilot in the World)...has 'too much money and not enough character'. As might easily have been anticipated, you have taken the egoist's approach to my remarks concerning unwarranted criticisms of the PW-5 and of the World Class concept. A F1 Ferrari is as unsuited to the Baja off-road race as an ASW 27b is to the World Class. It would be irrational to think otherwise, no? If one chooses not to fly a PW-5 because the level of competition of which one is capable requires a mount far more esoteric, then by all means choose the more suitable ship. But that hardly justifies the near hatred expressed here towards the PW-5. The PW-5 has its place. The fact that it has not been universally adopted says more, I believe, about the psychology of the sailplane enthusiast than it does about the capabilities of the aircraft. Are you honestly suggesting that people should WANT to sell their beautiful German sailplanes and buy PW5s? I'm suggesting (and I wonder why you are not) that I couldn't care less what aircraft someone chooses to fly, but only about how well they fly it, and ultimately what I might learn from them (and about them) in the process. Have you ever flown a glider? Certainly, though not well enough and not often enough -- do you suppose that is the glider's fault? Jack |
#132
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Bruce,
Are you referring to a Standard Cirrus or the Open version ? If it is a Standard, the force to open the airbrakes from locked position should be set at about 20 Kg (44 lb force). With this unlock requirement, I don't think just rubbing your arm along the lever would unlock the brakes. Cheers, John G. (Std Cirrus #672) "Bruce Greeff" wrote in message ... I'm so tight in my Cirrus I can inadvertently open the airbrakes by moving my left arm back. There is enough friction between my arm and the actuator to overcome the geometric lock. Quite exciting when you do that on your first single seater launch in a Cirrus on a winch... Uri Saovray wrote: Sure, but that doesn't take care of INADVERTENT opening of the spoilers. Examples: weak geometric lock + some turbulence; Dual-command + some confusion in the other seat; You can probably think of more examples... Uri Pete Zeugma wrote in message ... At 22:18 14 March 2004, Uri Saovray wrote: Speaking of simple warning devices: How about a simple hookup to a horn which is activated when the airbrakes are opened while the towhook is engaged (i.e. open spoilers during tow)? A microswitch on the airbrake levers would be the no-brainer part. What about the towhook? Magnetic sensor? where? How? Other ideas? how about the last 'B' in CB-SIFT-CB i've always found it to be a no-brainer personally, and its completely free! Usually accompanied by the guy who attaches the towrope/cable saying that phrase 'brakes closed and locked?' |
#133
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At 07:30 16 March 2004, Pete Zeugma wrote:
Actually, my train of thought is just to use good airmanship, which is free and widely available to everyone, if they can be bothered! What a simple and thought provoking statement. I agree We now seem to be advocating warnings and buzzers for every eventuality. This is a list of the sounds a pilot is expected to cope with if everyones idea are translated into reality, it may not be complete.......... Under carriage Flaps Stall alert (2 one for each wing tip) Tail dolly Low battery Canopy Main Pin G Meter Spoiler alert Aircraft Proximity alarm (only good if everyone has one fitted) Add a few more from the motor trade Tyre pressure alert Brake pad wear alert Add to this one essential noise Vario And a few helpful ones Radio GPS alerts Turn point alerts Approaching airspace alerts on nav aides There could be a competition for the pilot who could play the best tune in a circuit. Most pilots have enough to content with looking after the basics. Concentration should be on good airmanship to prevent the mistakes not devising instruments to detect faulty airmanship, thus adding further distractions and workload when the alarm bells start sounding. Just imagine when a buzzer that you haven't for several months starts sounding, and you then have to cycle all the alarms to try to detect which one it is, crash............ .......... Dave |
#134
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At 20:42 15 March 2004, Eric Greenwell wrote:
pilots that don't even fly them, such as myself (I fly an 18 m motorglider). Eric, Thanks very much. You have illustrated the whole problem with the concept of the World Class beautifully. A bunch of noisy psuedo-philanthropists sitting around praising the pros of the World Class when they havent even flown, yet alone competed in the class and judging by your glider choice (I am presuming an ASH-26e) have absolutely no intention to. Owain Libelle H201 - more performance than a PW5 and half the price. |
#135
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Confused Jack wrote:
'As might easily have been anticipated, you have taken the egoist's approach to my remarks concerning unwarranted criticisms of the PW-5 and of the World Class concept. ' 'I'm suggesting (and I wonder why you are not) that I couldn't care less what aircraft someone chooses to fly, but only about how well they fly it, and ultimately what I might learn from them (and about them) in the process.' OK, just one more time... I DON'T HATE THE PW5. I DON'T HATE THE WORLD CLASS CONCEPT. IN FACT, I THINK IT'S A GREAT IDEA WHICH IS WHY I ORIGINALLY POSTED ON THIS SITE. The PW5 has its place in the world and if people want to fly them - why would I care? Yes, I believe the PW5 does not represent value for money but I don’t care if others disagree. However, it would appear that only 300 people disagree which is not enough to make an international class. What I do care about is THE SELECTION OF THE PW5 FOR THE WORLD CLASS GLIDER. The World Class is an excellent concept and I wish it were the most popular class in gliding. However, as a movement we made a bad selection for the World Class glider which, as discussed, has led to the failure of the class. I am raising for discussion the concept of changing the PW5 for a glider that more people will want to fly so we can have a successful World Class. We have a problem in that we have committed to the PW5 until 2009 but perhaps there is something that can be done here - some suggestions have already been made as a result of this discussion. Ben. At 07:48 16 March 2004, Jack wrote: On 3/15/04 6:15 AM, in article -b erlin.de, 'Ben Flewett' wrote: ...[Schumacher's and Barrichello's] 'Mine is bigger than yours' attitude is ruining Formula One [and] John Coutts' (top ranked glider pilot in the World)...has 'too much money and not enough character'. As might easily have been anticipated, you have taken the egoist's approach to my remarks concerning unwarranted criticisms of the PW-5 and of the World Class concept. A F1 Ferrari is as unsuited to the Baja off-road race as an ASW 27b is to the World Class. It would be irrational to think otherwise, no? If one chooses not to fly a PW-5 because the level of competition of which one is capable requires a mount far more esoteric, then by all means choose the more suitable ship. But that hardly justifies the near hatred expressed here towards the PW-5. The PW-5 has its place. The fact that it has not been universally adopted says more, I believe, about the psychology of the sailplane enthusiast than it does about the capabilities of the aircraft. Are you honestly suggesting that people should WANT to sell their beautiful German sailplanes and buy PW5s? I'm suggesting (and I wonder why you are not) that I couldn't care less what aircraft someone chooses to fly, but only about how well they fly it, and ultimately what I might learn from them (and about them) in the process. Have you ever flown a glider? Certainly, though not well enough and not often enough -- do you suppose that is the glider's fault? Jack |
#136
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Hi Uri,
The solution for a warning on air brakes unlocked prior to take off is quite easy. Use a micro switch on the air brake handle and a pressure transducer from a washing machine in series. The pressure transducer is connected to Ptot with a restictor in the line. The restrictor together with the volume of the pressure transducer will cause a delay of several seconds before full Ptot is noticed. The pressure transducer switches at about 80 km/h for increasing pressure (at take off) and at about 40 km/h for decreasing pressure (after landing). I use the same idea in the warning system of our new glider. Have a look at http://home.wxs.nl/~kpt9/gear.htm , figure 5. Karel, NL "Uri Saovray" schreef in bericht om... So if we agree this is a good idea, my main question is the design of the tow sensor: 1) It must be robust 2) It must not interfere with the hook mechanism (open spoilers AND can't release???) 3) If it is magnetic - will it interfere with the compass? Does anybody care? 4) A Large magnet at the end of the tow rope - will it survive the fall to the ground (either on winch or from the tug Ideas? Uri Eric Greenwell wrote in message ... Uri Saovray wrote: Speaking of simple warning devices: How about a simple hookup to a horn which is activated when the airbrakes are opened while the towhook is engaged (i.e. open spoilers during tow)? A microswitch on the airbrake levers would be the no-brainer part. What about the towhook? Magnetic sensor? where? How? Other ideas? Uri This would be an easy addition to the typical gear warning system, with the new switch simply over-riding the gear switch. Fixed gear gliders would need to add a spoiler switch and warning buzzer. Pilots concerned about warning proliferation could consider using a voice chip to speak "Spoilers" and "Gear" for the two alerts, instead of a buzzer. Voice chips are cheap and simple to use these days. |
#137
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Pete,
Of course you are right about airmanship, etc. Same goes for almost any other warning system. The fact is that this has happened too many times, and I have seen it happening to people who's airmanship I DO respect. So IMHO, the next question is: If it's cheap and simple enough, why not??? Uri Pete Zeugma wrote in message ... At 19:12 15 March 2004, Bruce Greeff wrote: I'm so tight in my Cirrus I can inadvertently open the airbrakes by moving my left arm back. sure you're not over the max loading of it to then? ever thought of checking it more often since you know that you can open it so easily, or even having the overlock adjusted a bit tighter than your fit! |
#138
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Interesting discussion this World Class / PW5 thing!
Problem as I see it is: 1) the vast majority of people can only afford one glider (if that). 2) Competion pilots only spend a small amount of their total gliding time actually competeing in official comps. 3) Most of us like to spend our XC time flying with others around the same task, whether for company or sport. So for the comp pilot who fits in with 1, 2 and 3 which most I believe do, the choice of machine is dictated by the performance of their peer groups gliders (not necessarily ego's) So, If I wanted to fly world class for 2 weeks a year I would have to buy a PW5 rather than say an ASW20 and accept that I would loose out on a large amount of fun for the other 50 weeks of the year. I also can't help feeling we already have single design comps! Look at the entries in any Stardard, 15mtr, 18mtr Nationals and whilst the badges may be different on the gliders, the relative performance isn't. Now for real fun we ought to take all national champions from all countries and all classes. Put them in PW5's and let them fight it out for a single, true World Champion. That would be a comp to watch! David H |
#139
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.......Because it breeds relience on some gadget, rather
than making a simple sequence of checks as instinctive and natural as breathing. I got into the habit long ago of leaving my last check, the airbrakes, to last. I call cable on, and in response to 'brakes closed and locked' I open them and close them, and to the resounding thud of the overlock engaging I say '...and locked!' Thats how I was taught at our club. ............Probably the only alarm I would fit would be to alert you that the undercarridge lever has been moved off detent when on the ground. There is always some idiot who will fiddle with your glider when parked up, but then the canopy lock solved that one. At 12:06 16 March 2004, Uri Saovray wrote: Pete, Of course you are right about airmanship, etc. Same goes for almost any other warning system. The fact is that this has happened too many times, and I have seen it happening to people who's airmanship I DO respect. So IMHO, the next question is: If it's cheap and simple enough, why not??? Uri Pete Zeugma wrote in message news:... At 19:12 15 March 2004, Bruce Greeff wrote: I'm so tight in my Cirrus I can inadvertently open the airbrakes by moving my left arm back. sure you're not over the max loading of it to then? ever thought of checking it more often since you know that you can open it so easily, or even having the overlock adjusted a bit tighter than your fit! |
#140
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Absolutely correct. The point that has been missed
in all this is that having a warning device fitted breeds reliance on that warning. If you don't believe that consult Pavlov. The problem comes when the warning device fails because the battery is flat or the electricity can't bridge the air gap. Can you not hear the plaintive cry 'Well I thought it was working, the warning did not sound' or perhaps worse, 'Spinning, I can't have been, there was no warning buzzer' There is no substitute for paying attention, concentration and above all airmanship. Does anyone want to rely on a microswitch cost a few pence to keep them alive? At 13:00 16 March 2004, Pete Zeugma wrote: .......Because it breeds relience on some gadget, rather than making a simple sequence of checks as instinctive and natural as breathing. I got into the habit long ago of leaving my last check, the airbrakes, to last. I call cable on, and in response to 'brakes closed and locked' I open them and close them, and to the resounding thud of the overlock engaging I say '...and locked!' Thats how I was taught at our club. ............Probably the only alarm I would fit would be to alert you that the undercarridge lever has been moved off detent when on the ground. There is always some idiot who will fiddle with your glider when parked up, but then the canopy lock solved that one. At 12:06 16 March 2004, Uri Saovray wrote: Pete, Of course you are right about airmanship, etc. Same goes for almost any other warning system. The fact is that this has happened too many times, and I have seen it happening to people who's airmanship I DO respect. So IMHO, the next question is: If it's cheap and simple enough, why not??? Uri Pete Zeugma wrote in message news:... At 19:12 15 March 2004, Bruce Greeff wrote: I'm so tight in my Cirrus I can inadvertently open the airbrakes by moving my left arm back. sure you're not over the max loading of it to then? ever thought of checking it more often since you know that you can open it so easily, or even having the overlock adjusted a bit tighter than your fit! |
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