Bonanza crash caught on video

"Dudley Henriques" wrote!

In the meantime we can study that 30 second rule :-))
In the Ultralight, you'll probably be 10 feet into the takeoff roll. In
the T38, you'll be passing 10 thousand feet :-))

Or in the 18 wheeler, you will be in about 6th gear!

Ten - Four, good buddy! BFG
--
Jim in NC

Morgans wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote

No, all airplane engines sputter. Just park your BMV next to your
airplane and compare the sounds.

That is twice with that BVM stuff. The first time, I thought it was a typo,
but here it is again.

Is there a BVM car that I don't know about, or did you mean to say BMW?

Now we have BVM in addition to his BMV and BMW. I've never heard either
a BMV or BVM so I'll take your word that they sputter. Real engines
tuned properly (excluding racing engines with aggressive cams) don't
sputter. I don't consider Harley's to sputter either. They have an
uneven cadence, but I don't consider that to be sputtering by any
definition I'm familiar with.

Matt

Morgans wrote:
"john smith" wrote in message
...
30-second Rule.
If you are not airborne in 30-seconds, abort, something is wrong.
Sort it our on the ramp.

So you count to 30 while you take off, at the right speed? Watch the second
hand?

I think there has to be one of the other rules to follow that are a bit more
concrete and easy to recognize. Anything would be better than that!

Or was that an attempt at humor? If so, I couldn't tell.

I've heard the 30 second rule before and it is often close on airliners,
but my Skylane was in the air in MUCH less than 30 seconds. This rule
is way conservative for many airplanes and probably not conservative
enough for some. I prefer the being in the air by the 50% point as it
works for almost all airplanes on runways that are on the short side.

And, obviously, if something is REALLY wrong with the airplane, you
should feel or hear it anyway. I'm recommending the half of the runway
length for a properly functioning airplane, but on a runway that is
toward the short side and you want to know if an abort is required
before lift-off.

Matt

wrxpilot wrote:
On Sep 1, 9:30 pm, "Morgans" wrote:
"john smith" wrote in message

...

30-second Rule.
If you are not airborne in 30-seconds, abort, something is wrong.
Sort it our on the ramp.
So you count to 30 while you take off, at the right speed? Watch the second
hand?

I think there has to be one of the other rules to follow that are a bit more
concrete and easy to recognize. Anything would be better than that!

Or was that an attempt at humor? If so, I couldn't tell.
--
Jim in NC

Agreed... This "30 secs" rule is pretty impractical. I like to use
Sparky Imeson's rule of 71% rotation speed by 50% of the runway.
Having done a lot of my flying out of Colorado during the summer
months, it was a comforting rule of thumb.


As though you could really measure 71% accurately on most airspeed
indicators. Why not just say 70%?

Matt

The bottom line is that although one can learn by going the early route
in viewing a film, the learning is better with the supporting data included.

Agree. I think the benefits of watching the video will be greatly
enhanced after the NTSB report is published.

In the short term, however, I think everyone who views that video will
more carefully analyze their take-off performance whilst on the
roll. I certainly will.

Mary and I have a departure routine that seems to work. As soon as
the pilot advances the throttle, the copilot calls out (in order):

1. "Six good bars" (this is in reference to our JPI engine analyzer,
which has a bar graph depiction of each cylinder. When we lost a
cylinder coming out of Titusville, FL, it instantly pinpointed which
cylinder had failed.)

2. "RPMs good" (If the tach is indicating max RPM)

3. "Manifold pressure good"

4. "Oil pressure good" (In the green)

5. "Airspeed is alive"

This simple CRM enables the pilot to concentrate on flying the plane,
while the copilot monitors systems. It works well.

We don't have a formal "If the runway is 71% gone we'll abort" rule,
but if any of the five parameters (listed above) are not nominal, we
abort.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

karl gruber wrote:
"john smith" wrote in message
...
30-second Rule.
If you are not airborne in 30-seconds, abort, something is wrong.
Sort it our on the ramp.

On the Falcon 50EX there is a "G" meter. If the airplane won't make the
proper horizontal "G" on takeoff it means abort. The nice thing about this
is that max "G" is right at the start of the TO roll.

That doesn't sound right. Most turbines make more thrust with more
speed due to the ram air effect. Maybe the build in drag offsets the
increase in thrust, but it sounds suspicious that max G would occur at
virtually zero airspeed.

Matt

I had a couple of minor accidents as a teen - but they were caused by
distractions, not by speed.- Hide quoted text -

That's the other lesson I've tried to impart to my son. A tiny,
insignificant distraction can have horrendous results, when you're
hurtling down the road in a steel box.

Some of the worst accidents I've witnessed were caused by the driver
simply looking at his passenger while talking to them. (One of my pet
peeves, BTW. I had a coworker who simply HAD to look at you while
talking, even while driving in Chicago traffic. I finally refused to
ride with him.)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Morgans wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote

What seems obvious is not always the answer, and it's the wise pilot who
realizes the real safety message will be found along the investigative
path that follows the video rather than by watching the video itself
without this valuable information.

Although I agree in principle as to what you said, I wonder if in this case,
we can all take away some knowledge, and cautions, just from the
speculations to the possible causes.

The speculation is at best useful as a general reminder of topics such
as DA and downwind takeoffs, but any real learning will have to await
the NTSB results. If the A36 experienced an engine failure shortly
after lift-off, then this accident falls into the "crap happens"
category and I'd say the pilot did the best he could do at coming down
at minimum controllable airspeed. And the fact that all but one person
made it out alive is a very good thing. This would be in the 15-20% of
accidents that we as pilots simply have little control over.

OTOH, if it turns out that this was a confluence of many bad pilot
judgments, then there is much to learn. If the accident was a result of
high DA, over gross loading, an engine 500 hours past TBO with marginal
compression that was putting out only 80% of rated power, etc., etc.,
then there is much to learn ... although this is all stuff we should
already know anyway.

Many, if not most, accidents aren't the result of any one thing going
wrong, they are the result of a chain of errors, failures or bad
judgments. We need the NTSB report to know which applies in this case.

Matt

Dudley Henriques wrote:
Morgans wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote So basically you can
learn in the general sense or the specific sense.
Both have value as a safety message but one should never be used at
the expense of the other.
The bottom line is that although one can learn by going the early
route in viewing a film, the learning is better with the supporting
data included.
Dudley Henriques

I agree 100 percent, with all you wrote.

Here's to waiting for the results to learn the specifics!

In the meantime we can study that 30 second rule :-))
In the Ultralight, you'll probably be 10 feet into the takeoff roll. In
the T38, you'll be passing 10 thousand feet :-))

Ha, ha, ha. Yes, I had a good chuckle at that rule also. How high
would a cat launched F-18 be ... 20,000 ft? :-)

Matt

Blueskies wrote:
"Roger (K8RI)" wrote in message ...
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 13:06:04 -0700, Airbus wrote:
I was told by the a State Police officer that although in the short
term those presentations had a positive effect, the long term effect
was negative. People and particularly the young have a tendency to
push the envelope. It works out to , "I've been doing that for a long
time and nothing happened to me, or I know some one who does that all
the time". We had the same kind of problems in industry safety.

I think it was Kelly Johnson who said "Make things as simple as possible, but no simpler." Same sort of adage, you
really don't know where the line is unless you cross it (or unless you pay attention and do what you are told!)


Either Johnson or William of Occam. :-))

--
Dudley Henriques