Things not to do while working on your private ticket...

More_Flaps wrote:
On Aug 10, 5:17 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Before them, not much about flight was known at all. There was a lot
of
supposition and they found that the info available at the time was
completely wrong, which is why they started form scratch with a wind
tunnel.
The accomplishments encommpassed in that first airplane are simply
astounding.
Not to mention what they learned about control. Between the kite
experiments and the early gliders they had learned a lot about
controlling their machines.


I think there were two main issues. Model planes had already been
built and flown but real flight needed control as you said plus enough
lift. It was their systematic experimenting ht gave them success
rather than genius I think.

I'd certainly call their accomplishment the result of genius, considering
that in the century that followed the contributions of thousands of
brilliant aeronautical engineers were comparatively minor tweaks of the
Wrights' systematic experiments.

Neil

On Aug 11, 6:30*am, Clark wrote:
More_Flaps wrote in news:0344026b-cf53-4b18-92dd-
:



On Aug 9, 3:47*pm, Clark wrote:
More_Flaps wrote in news:4638dcb3-05ba-4e44-97f1-
:

On Aug 9, 9:51*am, Clark wrote:
More_Flaps wrote in news:ae58b49a-6d9c-4b51-
957a
-
:

On Aug 9, 12:06*am, Clark wrote:

I've pointed out that carb ice is one of the least likely causes
an
d
I've
explaied why that is by noting the temperature and expected
throttl
e
setting. I have never said that carb ice is impossible. Maybe the
g
uy
idl
ed
for a loooong time and failed to check carb heat on run-up. Maybe
h
e
fail
ed
to verify max rpm on the run-up and/or take-off roll. It is
possibl
e
that
he had carb ice but at 92 degrees and less than 50% humidity and a
hot
engine it is just not a likely cause.

I notice you did not answer my altitude question. I'm honored that
y
ou
agree that carb ice cannot be ruled out simply by high ambient
_ground_ temperature. Now what else might be an explanation for
powe
r
steadily dropping?

Cheers.

Bull**** on not answering the altitude question. Read the NTSB report
(th
at
you snipped) for yourself. The altitude is quite clear for anyone who
can
comprehend what they read.

I see no statement of altitude. Are you on drugs?

Cheers

What part of departure do you not understand? Maybe you should get an
adu
lt
to read the NTSB report to you and explain the meaning of each sentence.
No, cancel that. Not maybe, make it for-sure that you get help with
understanding the report.

Do you know the altitude? It's not contained in the word departure is
it?
Cheers

Look up the airport elevation yerself. Departure would be climbing out in
other words within a thousand feet or so of the airport since you don't
seem to understand the term.


Nope. Departure is the phase before enroute. It is NOT within 1000' of
the airport. How about you take some classes?

Cheers

On Aug 10, 3:35*pm, More_Flaps wrote:
On Aug 11, 6:30*am, Clark wrote:



More_Flaps wrote in news:0344026b-cf53-4b18-92dd-
:

On Aug 9, 3:47*pm, Clark wrote:
More_Flaps wrote in news:4638dcb3-05ba-4e44-97f1-
:

On Aug 9, 9:51*am, Clark wrote:
More_Flaps wrote in news:ae58b49a-6d9c-4b51-
957a
-
:

On Aug 9, 12:06*am, Clark wrote:

I've pointed out that carb ice is one of the least likely causes
an
d
I've
explaied why that is by noting the temperature and expected
throttl
e
setting. I have never said that carb ice is impossible. Maybe the
g
uy
idl
ed
for a loooong time and failed to check carb heat on run-up. Maybe
h
e
fail
ed
to verify max rpm on the run-up and/or take-off roll. It is
possibl
e
that
he had carb ice but at 92 degrees and less than 50% humidity and a
hot
engine it is just not a likely cause.

I notice you did not answer my altitude question. I'm honored that
y
ou
agree that carb ice cannot be ruled out simply by high ambient
_ground_ temperature. Now what else might be an explanation for
powe
r
steadily dropping?

Cheers.

Bull**** on not answering the altitude question. Read the NTSB report
(th
at
you snipped) for yourself. The altitude is quite clear for anyone who
can
comprehend what they read.

I see no statement of altitude. Are you on drugs?

Cheers

What part of departure do you not understand? Maybe you should get an
adu
lt
to read the NTSB report to you and explain the meaning of each sentence.
No, cancel that. Not maybe, make it for-sure that you get help with
understanding the report.

Do you know the altitude? It's not contained in the word departure is
it?
Cheers

Look up the airport elevation yerself. Departure would be climbing out in
other words within a thousand feet or so of the airport since you don't
seem to understand the term.

Nope. Departure is the phase before enroute. It is NOT within 1000' of
the airport. How about you take some classes?

Cheers

It would appear from the newspaper report associated with this
accident that it happened on the grounds of the airport. It's unlikely
the airplane was very high.

On Aug 6, 7:36 pm, Clark wrote:

Well, gee, the density altitude was mentioned to be 3500 feet at an airport
only a couple hundred feet above sea level. It was Texas in the summer
time. I'm willing to bet the temperature was a heck-of-a-lot closer to 100
than it was to 40 or 50 or even 60 where we really might expect carb icing.

The guy should have been at max power which is the least likely time to see
carb ice form. If he did the run-up correctly then carb ice was not a
likely problem since it would have been detected during the full power
turn-up.

As a final note, yes, carb ice might form at 100 F but it most likely won't
form at max power at 100 F.

There have been accidents caused by carb ice that formed after the
runup while taxiing to the takeoff runway. The airplane can get
airborne but has trouble climbing, and the ice that formed before
takeoff is not only reducing the power but causing a larger pressure
drop in the carb, creating the conditions that cause more ice to form.
I fly a Continental, and I often have to use carb heat right up until
I open the throttle for takeoff. And I don't even live in a
particularly wet climate.
If you search AOPA's accident database for "Carburetor Icing"
you'll find hundredsdozens of cases where the only plausible
explanation was carb ice. The atmospheric conditions were ripe for it,
the situation allowed it, and the pilot, in many cases, didn't know
enough about it. I work in the flight training environment and know
first-hand about carb ice and how few people understand it or care to
understand it, and how some people just will not believe that it can
happen at full power on a warm day. People like you. Sooner or later
they get a wake-up, and they either handle it right or they have an
accident. I lost a flying friend that way, and too often we hear of
more carb ice accidents.
Folks older and wiser than you did a lot of research and
experimenting and came up with those icing charts, charts that have a
section that says "serious icing at ANY power setting." Pay attention.

Dan

Clark wrote:
Now on to the meat of it. Look at those charts again and note that the
serious icing risk sections aren't near 100 F.

Well ... based on historical conditions reported at FTW (Fort Worth, about
90-100 miles away) at noon of that day (15 minutes prior to the accident),
I believe the temperature appears to have been closer to ~90 F (32 C) at
the time of the accident. Dewpoint appears to have been somewhere in the
neighborhood of ~67 F (19 C). So somewhere around ~48% humidity. I'm using
this chart for reference for when carb icing takes place:

http://ibis.experimentals.de/images/...omcaassl14.gif

Drawing a vertical line from the 32 C point up to where it intersects a
horizontal line at 19 C results in a point just inside the orange area that
marks "Serious icing - descent power".

Getting back to the post that started this thread: there are many possible
causes for the accident, but not having a private pilot license was, IMHO,
probably not causal for this particular accident. (If the pilot never
learned about carb ice and the need to add carb heat in warm humid
conditions and icing did happen, then not having a license I suppose could
be considered causal.)

All that said, I'd be interested in knowing what other possible causes you
have in mind that happen often enough to exhibit the reported problems that
you consider them more probable than carb icing. I would find it
instructive.

On Aug 11, 8:48*am, Clark wrote:
More_Flaps wrote in news:7de3c2a7-0640-4079-ba38-
:





On Aug 11, 6:30*am, Clark wrote:
More_Flaps wrote in news:0344026b-cf53-4b18-92dd-
:

On Aug 9, 3:47*pm, Clark wrote:
More_Flaps wrote in news:4638dcb3-05ba-4e44-
97f1
-
:

On Aug 9, 9:51*am, Clark wrote:
More_Flaps wrote in news:ae58b49a-6d9c-4b51-
957a
-
:

On Aug 9, 12:06*am, Clark wrote:

I've pointed out that carb ice is one of the least likely
causes
an
d
I've
explaied why that is by noting the temperature and expected
throttl
e
setting. I have never said that carb ice is impossible. Maybe
th
e
g
uy
idl
ed
for a loooong time and failed to check carb heat on run-up.
Mayb
e
h
e
fail
ed
to verify max rpm on the run-up and/or take-off roll. It is
possibl
e
that
he had carb ice but at 92 degrees and less than 50% humidity
and
*a
hot
engine it is just not a likely cause.

I notice you did not answer my altitude question. I'm honored
tha
t
y
ou
agree that carb ice cannot be ruled out simply by high ambient
_ground_ temperature. Now what else might be an explanation for
powe
r
steadily dropping?

Cheers.

Bull**** on not answering the altitude question. Read the NTSB
repo
rt
(th
at
you snipped) for yourself. The altitude is quite clear for anyone
w
ho
can
comprehend what they read.

I see no statement of altitude. Are you on drugs?

Cheers

What part of departure do you not understand? Maybe you should get an
adu
lt
to read the NTSB report to you and explain the meaning of each
sentenc
e.
No, cancel that. Not maybe, make it for-sure that you get help with
understanding the report.

Do you know the altitude? It's not contained in the word departure is
it?
Cheers

Look up the airport elevation yerself. Departure would be climbing out
in
other words within a thousand feet or so of the airport since you don't
seem to understand the term.

Nope. Departure is the phase before enroute. It is NOT within 1000' of
the airport. How about you take some classes?

Hey, everywhere around here has a pattern altitude of about a thousand
feet. If you're beyond that then you've departed the airspace. QED



Nope, airspace is not determined just by vertical extent and certainly
not by the extent of the "pattern". I guess thart makes you
bombastically wrong AGAIN. Here's a simple test for you, what is the
horizontal validity of a METAR? Hint: It's not 1000'...

Cheers

On Aug 11, 8:07*am, wrote:
On Aug 10, 3:35*pm, More_Flaps wrote:



On Aug 11, 6:30*am, Clark wrote:

More_Flaps wrote in news:0344026b-cf53-4b18-92dd-
:

On Aug 9, 3:47*pm, Clark wrote:
More_Flaps wrote in news:4638dcb3-05ba-4e44-97f1-
:

On Aug 9, 9:51*am, Clark wrote:
More_Flaps wrote in news:ae58b49a-6d9c-4b51-
957a
-
:

On Aug 9, 12:06*am, Clark wrote:

I've pointed out that carb ice is one of the least likely causes
an
d
I've
explaied why that is by noting the temperature and expected
throttl
e
setting. I have never said that carb ice is impossible. Maybe the
g
uy
idl
ed
for a loooong time and failed to check carb heat on run-up. Maybe
h
e
fail
ed
to verify max rpm on the run-up and/or take-off roll. It is
possibl
e
that
he had carb ice but at 92 degrees and less than 50% humidity and a
hot
engine it is just not a likely cause.

I notice you did not answer my altitude question. I'm honored that
y
ou
agree that carb ice cannot be ruled out simply by high ambient
_ground_ temperature. Now what else might be an explanation for
powe
r
steadily dropping?

Cheers.

Bull**** on not answering the altitude question. Read the NTSB report
(th
at
you snipped) for yourself. The altitude is quite clear for anyone who
can
comprehend what they read.

I see no statement of altitude. Are you on drugs?

Cheers

What part of departure do you not understand? Maybe you should get an
adu
lt
to read the NTSB report to you and explain the meaning of each sentence.
No, cancel that. Not maybe, make it for-sure that you get help with
understanding the report.

Do you know the altitude? It's not contained in the word departure is
it?
Cheers

Look up the airport elevation yerself. Departure would be climbing out in
other words within a thousand feet or so of the airport since you don't
seem to understand the term.

Nope. Departure is the phase before enroute. It is NOT within 1000' of
the airport. How about you take some classes?

Cheers

It would appear from the newspaper report associated with this
accident that it happened on the grounds of the airport. It's unlikely
the airplane was very high.

Errr OK if the airport has trees on it's grounds... Never seen that
myself but maybe we were too rash at cutting them to make an
aerodrome.

Cheers

On Aug 11, 8:48*am, Clark wrote:
More_Flaps wrote in news:7de3c2a7-0640-4079-ba38-
:





On Aug 11, 6:30*am, Clark wrote:
More_Flaps wrote in news:0344026b-cf53-4b18-92dd-
:

On Aug 9, 3:47*pm, Clark wrote:
More_Flaps wrote in news:4638dcb3-05ba-4e44-
97f1
-
:

On Aug 9, 9:51*am, Clark wrote:
More_Flaps wrote in news:ae58b49a-6d9c-4b51-
957a
-
:

On Aug 9, 12:06*am, Clark wrote:

I've pointed out that carb ice is one of the least likely
causes
an
d
I've
explaied why that is by noting the temperature and expected
throttl
e
setting. I have never said that carb ice is impossible. Maybe
th
e
g
uy
idl
ed
for a loooong time and failed to check carb heat on run-up.
Mayb
e
h
e
fail
ed
to verify max rpm on the run-up and/or take-off roll. It is
possibl
e
that
he had carb ice but at 92 degrees and less than 50% humidity
and
*a
hot
engine it is just not a likely cause.

I notice you did not answer my altitude question. I'm honored
tha
t
y
ou
agree that carb ice cannot be ruled out simply by high ambient
_ground_ temperature. Now what else might be an explanation for
powe
r
steadily dropping?

Cheers.

Bull**** on not answering the altitude question. Read the NTSB
repo
rt
(th
at
you snipped) for yourself. The altitude is quite clear for anyone
w
ho
can
comprehend what they read.

I see no statement of altitude. Are you on drugs?

Cheers

What part of departure do you not understand? Maybe you should get an
adu
lt
to read the NTSB report to you and explain the meaning of each
sentenc
e.
No, cancel that. Not maybe, make it for-sure that you get help with
understanding the report.

Do you know the altitude? It's not contained in the word departure is
it?
Cheers

Look up the airport elevation yerself. Departure would be climbing out
in
other words within a thousand feet or so of the airport since you don't
seem to understand the term.

Nope. Departure is the phase before enroute. It is NOT within 1000' of
the airport. How about you take some classes?


Now to really destroy your altitude question. Do you really expect carb
icing to suddenly develop at high altitude while on departure at full
throttle or even cruise power??? Prior to this exchange of posts I would
have assumed that you do understand that very low manifold pressure is
required for there to be any chance of carb ice in Texas in the summer at
Skyhawk attainable altitudes. Obviously my assumption was incorrect and
clearly you have no grasp the causes of carb icing.

Nope I would not, as trained pilot, rule it out without testing for
it. Jumping to conclusions without facts can get you killed. You will
note that my original observation was a paranthetic question, which
you dismissed because it couldn't possibly happen? How do _you_ know
that ice build up had not started -was manifold pressure available to
the pilot and did he look at it?

Cheers

On Aug 11, 8:23*am, Clark wrote:
More_Flaps wrote in news:1e21c1be-8850-4f80-91d4-
:



On Aug 11, 8:48*am, Clark wrote:
More_Flaps wrote in news:7de3c2a7-0640-4079-ba38-
:

On Aug 11, 6:30*am, Clark wrote:
More_Flaps wrote in news:0344026b-cf53-4b18-
92dd
-
:

On Aug 9, 3:47*pm, Clark wrote:
More_Flaps wrote in news:4638dcb3-05ba-4e44-
97f1
-
:

On Aug 9, 9:51*am, Clark wrote:
More_Flaps wrote in news:ae58b49a-6d9c-
4b5
1-
957a
-
:

On Aug 9, 12:06*am, Clark wrote:

I've pointed out that carb ice is one of the least likely
causes
an
d
I've
explaied why that is by noting the temperature and expected
throttl
e
setting. I have never said that carb ice is impossible.
Maybe
th
e
g
uy
idl
ed
for a loooong time and failed to check carb heat on run-up..
Mayb
e
h
e
fail
ed
to verify max rpm on the run-up and/or take-off roll. It is
possibl
e
that
he had carb ice but at 92 degrees and less than 50% humidity
and
*a
hot
engine it is just not a likely cause.

I notice you did not answer my altitude question. I'm honored
tha
t
y
ou
agree that carb ice cannot be ruled out simply by high
ambient
_ground_ temperature. Now what else might be an explanation
fo
r
powe
r
steadily dropping?

Cheers.

Bull**** on not answering the altitude question. Read the NTSB
repo
rt
(th
at
you snipped) for yourself. The altitude is quite clear for
anyon
e
w
ho
can
comprehend what they read.

I see no statement of altitude. Are you on drugs?

Cheers

What part of departure do you not understand? Maybe you should get
an
adu
lt
to read the NTSB report to you and explain the meaning of each
sentenc
e.
No, cancel that. Not maybe, make it for-sure that you get help
with
understanding the report.

Do you know the altitude? It's not contained in the word departure
i
s
it?
Cheers

Look up the airport elevation yerself. Departure would be climbing
out
in
other words within a thousand feet or so of the airport since you
don'
t
seem to understand the term.

Nope. Departure is the phase before enroute. It is NOT within 1000' of
the airport. How about you take some classes?

Now to really destroy your altitude question. Do you really expect carb
icing to suddenly develop at high altitude while on departure at full
throttle or even cruise power??? Prior to this exchange of posts I would
have assumed that you do understand that very low manifold pressure is
required for there to be any chance of carb ice in Texas in the summer
at
Skyhawk attainable altitudes. Obviously my assumption was incorrect and
clearly you have no grasp the causes of carb icing.

Nope I would not, as trained pilot, rule it out without testing for
it. Jumping to conclusions without facts can get you killed. You will
note that my original observation was a paranthetic question, which
you dismissed because it couldn't possibly happen? How do _you_ know
that ice build up had not started -was manifold pressure available to
the pilot and did he look at it?

Get real dufuss. I noted that carb icing isn't the most likely cause. Do
try to keep up now.

--
---
there should be a "sig" here

It's been a long long time since I flew a normally carberated
airplane, but just had this thought. What would have been the results
if in 90 degree temps someone did try to take off with the carb heat
full on? Would the loss of power be significant? I'm thinking it's one
thing to check for carb ice and carb heat function during run up, but
the amount of heat available during full throttle takeoff could be
something very different. I know it may have nothing to do with this
case, but hope someone can provide an insightful answer anyhow.

More_Flaps wrote:

Errr OK if the airport has trees on it's grounds... Never seen that
myself but maybe we were too rash at cutting them to make an
aerodrome.

Cheers

Well, feel free to visit KELD. We have so many trees on the airport
property that they produce income for the airport.