#1 Piston Fighter was British

On 10 Jul 2003 23:00:50 -0700, (Kevin Brooks)
wrote:

BTW, we no longer have blacksmiths serving with
the cavalry units, either...nor horses, for that matter.

That's not true, actually. One of the cavalry units, either the 1st
or the 7th, has horses at Ft. Riley. Eighteen horses, some mules, and
a dog, not to mention the associated personnel. You can find photos
and more information on the Web.

There's also a ceremonial Army unit, which provided Black Jack for
JKF's funeral, as well as the horses who pull the caisson for
funerals.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

"Turn to kill, not to engage." LCDR Willie Driscoll, USN

"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ...
In message , ArtKramr
writes
Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: "Paul J. Adam"
I'd call a Piper Cub, or an Auster, doing artillery observation a
"combat aircraft" - the enemy recieving the fire are just as dead.

As is the pilot, if enemy AAA or fighters catch up with him.

If you're taking direct fire from the enemy, you're in combat. Hard to
argue with that definition.

How do you feel about latrine orderlies?

Wouldn't award them combat medals unless they took and returned enemy
fire.

Would definitely consider them key personnel, because it's a
twentieth-century innovation that armies lose more troops to enemy fire
than to disease. Bombardiers sick with gastro-enteritis are as useless
as dead bombardiers until they get well (and they need decent sanitation
to get better)

The idea that an army consisted of nothing but fighting men died a
hundred and fifty years ago, and for damn good reason. The downside is,
instead of every soldier being recruited to trail the puissant pike, a
lot of troops get hired for unglamorous, boring, unheroic jobs like
field sanitation, oil changes on engines, FOD walkdowns and cook duty.

War heroes they ain't - but the heroes stand on their shoulders. If they
weren't essential they'd have been given rifles and sent to the front
(which was the traditional method): and the side with the best logistics
wins.

Art, when did your unit ever cancel missions because you were short of
spares, or bombs, or avgas, or .50cal ammo? (The enemy did, frequently)

When did you scrub sorties because flight crew were malnourished or
diseased? Do you not realise how lucky you were, to have such tremendous
logistic capability backing you?

Men made sure that your aircraft never lacked fuel, bombs, spares or
ammunition, and its crew were fed and healthy. Keeping a B-26 fed and
watered strikes me as a challenging job. Keeping an airbase's latrines
sweet in summer is a challenge I'd personally shy from. But _someone_
has to do it and it seems someone did, which let you fly your missions.

You don't value latrine orderlies? Fine, dig and maintain your own.
Don't appreciate cooks? Feed yourselves. And so it goes. Doesn't take
long before you're too busy trying to survive, to fly missions
effectively.

Very well put, Paul, and dead on target.

Brooks

In article , Mary Shafer
writes
On 10 Jul 2003 23:00:50 -0700, (Kevin Brooks)
wrote:

BTW, we no longer have blacksmiths serving with
the cavalry units, either...nor horses, for that matter.

That's not true, actually. One of the cavalry units, either the 1st
or the 7th, has horses at Ft. Riley. Eighteen horses, some mules, and
a dog, not to mention the associated personnel. You can find photos
and more information on the Web.

There's also a ceremonial Army unit, which provided Black Jack for
JKF's funeral, as well as the horses who pull the caisson for
funerals.

Mary

Jolts my memory...

Many years ago, the journalist Alistair Cooke asked a retired US Cavalry
colonel when was the last time horses were used by the US Army during
combat.
"On Bataan," came the reply. "We ate them."

Does the present US cavalry manual suggest such operational flexibility?

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

In article ,
(Kevin Brooks) wrote:

Mary Shafer wrote in message
. ..
On 10 Jul 2003 23:00:50 -0700, (Kevin Brooks)
wrote:

BTW, we no longer have blacksmiths serving with
the cavalry units, either...nor horses, for that matter.

That's not true, actually.

Yes it is, actually.

One of the cavalry units, either the 1st
or the 7th, has horses at Ft. Riley. Eighteen horses, some mules, and
a dog, not to mention the associated personnel. You can find photos
and more information on the Web.

As does B Trp 4th Cav Rgt (Memorial) at Huachuca, but those are not
*real* cavalry units. If they are, please show me an MTOE listing
horses as part of the current cavalry structure (as opposed to at best
a TDA, and I doubt they even have that). B-4 CAV even has civilian
members (as "associates"). And where is that MOS for
blacksmith/ferrier, or horse trooper?


There's also a ceremonial Army unit, which provided Black Jack for
JKF's funeral, as well as the horses who pull the caisson for
funerals.

First, the 3rd Inf (Old Guard) is not a cavalry unit. Those horses are
part of the Caisson Platoon (which harkens back to the days when
horses were found in all branches, and especially in the field
artillery).

I kind of figured some nitpicker would jump on the Old Guard
use--which is why I said "cavalry".


The Army does seem to maintain an inventory of spare parts for horses,
at least the after part.

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 05:19:39 -0400, Cub Driver
wrote:

I'm glad the Cub made it into the discussion!

And I'm glad av8r remembered the incident I mentioned the other day,
in which a liaison a/c "shot" down a LW fighter.

There was also an incident in which a CAP a/c sank a German U-boat,
although the a/c was not a Piper Cub. I seem to recall it was a
Stinson, but I wouldn't bet on that.

vince norris

On 29 Jun 2003 17:04:35 GMT, nt (Gordon) wrote:


Well, the Hampdens, Battles and their ilk were certainly a disaster, but I do
agree that the German idea of a bomber primarily useful as a CAS asset was a
huge flaw.

If your primary enemies (Poland, France) are on your borders, than
designing bomber that will help the army subdue the enemy in shortest
possible time looks like a good move to me.

The German's prewar thinking was how to win battles, not sustain a
nearly indefinite war - something both America and Russia could afford to do.

Germany could never win a nearly indefinite war against opponents who
enjoyed the command of the seas and access to resources Germany
lacked.

I think its a very lucky thing that the man that would have insured the Germans
possessed a heavy bomber died in the years leading up to the war. Without a
strategic bomber, Germany never had a chance.

Strategic bombers were not needed to defeat Poland, nor France. They
weren't needed for invasion of USSR either. Germany did not posses
resources to build both, strategic bombers and tactical ones. They did
not have fuel for both. Given the historical reality, they picked the
weapon that matched their needs. Political map of Europe in June 1940
reflects this.


Drax
remove NOSPAM for reply

Hi Kevin!

On 10 Jul 2003 20:28:23 -0700, (Kevin Brooks)
wrote:

And to think CWO Michael Novosel (himself a former B-29 pilot from WWII
who later reentered the service to fly helos) got the MoH while flying just that
kind of (unarmed) mission for the 82nd Med Det in the RVN (and the MoH
is reserved for actions that take place *in combat*...

I am interested whether you can point me to more information about the
life and combat experience of Michael Novosel. His last name sound
Croatian (although it could be Slovak too) and he is all but unknown
in my neck of woods.

Best regards,

Drax

On 30 Jun 2003 18:07:40 -0700, (The
Enlightenment) wrote:


The Omaha defenses survived the high altitude bombardment by B17s
which I think was effected by cloud and winds. Another factor was the
12th Waffen SS division with experience on the Russian front having
been missed by allied intelligence and not being to far from the
scene.

I guess you meant 352nd division. "Hitlerjugend" division had no
combat experience prior to Normandy capaign.


Drax

Novosel's people came from Ribnik in Croatia.

He does a lot of speaking at MoH events.

Have you read his book?:
http://www.militaryink.com/books/200...0891418024.htm

Couple of nice stories at:
http://www.nissipub.com/Vietnam/novosel.htm and
http://www.rotc.neu.edu/thelance/sp00/novosel.htm

His Email is (was?):



"Drazen Kramaric" wrote in message
...
Hi Kevin!

On 10 Jul 2003 20:28:23 -0700, (Kevin Brooks)
wrote:

And to think CWO Michael Novosel (himself a former B-29 pilot from WWII
who later reentered the service to fly helos) got the MoH while flying
just that
kind of (unarmed) mission for the 82nd Med Det in the RVN (and the MoH
is reserved for actions that take place *in combat*...

I am interested whether you can point me to more information about the
life and combat experience of Michael Novosel. His last name sound
Croatian (although it could be Slovak too) and he is all but unknown
in my neck of woods.

Best regards,

Drax

On 10 Jul 2003 23:00:50 -0700, (Kevin Brooks)
wrote:

(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: "Paul J. Adam"
Date: 7/10/03 4:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

In message , ArtKramr
writes
Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: "Paul J. Adam"
Date: 7/10/03 1:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:
Carrying a deadly payload counts: do _you_ want to tell the paratroopers
that you don't consider them to be dangerous?
I guess if thos troops got there on bicycles we would have to call the
bikes
combat vehlcles.

The Japanese used bicycles to transport troops and did so very, very
effectively in 1942. If you can manoeuvre your force faster than the
enemy, who cares _how_ you do it?

And if a Piper Cub crashes and kills an enemy soldier we have
to designate the Piper Cub as a ground attack aircraft.(sheesh)

I'd call a Piper Cub, or an Auster, doing artillery observation a
"combat aircraft" - the enemy recieving the fire are just as dead.

As is the pilot, if enemy AAA or fighters catch up with him.

If you're taking direct fire from the enemy, you're in combat. Hard to
argue with that definition.


How do you feel about latrine orderlies?

They no longer exist as a specialty (as if they ever did), nor do
those mess stewards you mentioned earlier (except maybe in the Navy,
and then they are usually sitting on the same *combat* ship as the
rest of the crew...). BTW, we no longer have blacksmiths serving with
the cavalry units, either...nor horses, for that matter.

Brooks


Arthur Kramer

The US Navy did away with the Steward rate about 20 years ago.

Al Minyard