Fly Boy ?????

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: Mike Marron
Date: 10/24/03 8:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

"Bill Silvey" wrote:
"Mike Marron" wrote:

And one of your brothers and highly respected posters on this
NG who actually fought in another war has succinctly explained to you
that playing Monday Morning Quarterback after all these years
is to demean the whole warrior ethic. The fact that you have chosen
to conveniently ignore his pointed comments aimed squarely at
YOU is duly noted, BTW.

Mike, Art's rabid partisanship won't let him see past this. If Bush had
been a supply-side democrat, Art would be on the other side of this
argument, no doubt.

Agreed. And "newsgroup politics" is the reason why Art is afraid to
respond directly to Major Rasimus, who just tore him a new one.

Politics...ya' just gotta' love it!




I checked that post and the "Major" never came right out and named art at all.
No wonder Art never replied. Did the Warrior Class major lose his nerve?

"Autocollimator" wrote in message
...

Of course once the crew ditched the aircraft threory became practice
pretty
friggin fast. Or hadn't that occured to you?


That's a possibility, not a surety. It's also possible the manufacturer's
theory was proven wrong. Why didn't that possibility occur to you?

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: av8r
Date: 10/24/03 8:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


As I understand it Art is the only one in this NG that actually flew combat
in
WWII as aircrew.So I will take his view above all those that never flew
as
aircrew in WW II. As far as wallowing in the mud goes, look to yourself.

Right On!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers...Chris


We must never confuse the ones who only talk the talk with those who actually
walked the walk.

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
Date: 10/24/03 12:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: t


"Autocollimator" wrote in message
...

Of course once the crew ditched the aircraft threory became practice
pretty
friggin fast. Or hadn't that occured to you?


That's a possibility, not a surety. It's also possible the manufacturer's
theory was proven wrong. Why didn't that possibility occur to you?


No a surety, not just a possibility. Have you ever gotten off the ground in a
miliatry aircraft? I think not.

"Autocollimator" wrote in message
...

No a surety, not just a possibility.


Nonsense. If aircraft always behaved as predicted there'd be no need to
test them.



Have you ever gotten off the ground in a miliatry aircraft?


Irrelevant.



I think not.


It's becoming increasingly obvious you don't think at all.

(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: "Gord Beaman"

I've done hundreds of ditching drills where we needed to get an
18 man crew out on the hangar floor carrying their proper items.
We could usually do it but remember that you're doing the testing
in a nice warm lighted hangar, not the middle of the North
Atlantic in a winter gale after the trauma of a night ditching...
--

-Gord.
.

I am not talking about drills in a hanger. I am yalking about one a day in
Tampa Bay. And lives lost and lessons learned the hard way.
.
Arthur Kramer

Well of course you are Art...you say that you have 30 seconds
before the a/c sinks, that it's proven by tank testing. I'm
merely pointing out that that's not carved in stone, that it
depends on a lot of parameters. Which of course you know.

I do object to your handling of that post, you intimate that
while I talk of 'ditching drills' you talk of 'lives lost and
lessons learned'. What the hell does that mean?

Neither one of us has ditched therefore you are no more of an
expert than I am despite how you tried to make it sound.

So then you're just a 'wannabe' because 'you haven't been there
nor done that' as you're so fond of saying.

See how silly that sounds?
--

-Gord.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
k.net...

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

Anyway, since I started this thread with an innocent question, in
recognition of
the **** storm it generated, I'm going to claim author's rights to revise
my
question. AIR, we were talking about ditching characteristics, and I
asked what
the manufacturer had to say on the subject.

In those days, before an aircraft hit the inventory, the only people who
knew
how it was going to behave were the manufacturer and his test pilots.
Before
they turned the aircraft over to the military for their acceptance
testing, they
sat down and wrote a flight manual, which contained everything the
operator
needed to know about how to make the bird go up and come back down in one
piece.
Before the first of that model actually ditched in the water somewhere,
its crew
should have familiarized themselves with every bit of the information in
that
manual, including how it was going to behave when it hit the water and
recommendations on how best to make initial contact with the water.


Unless the manufacturer actually ditched the aircraft whatever was written
in the manual was theory.

Actually, some manufacturers (and maybe all, for all I know), did do exactly
that with scaled models of their new aircraft. In any case, I'd rather have
some applied theory from an aeronautical engineer who designed the aircraft than
guesswork from somebody who thought he knew how it would react better than the
bird's designers.

Since you seem committed to pooh-pooh the manufacturer's knowledge no matter
what, what does the pilot who has the misfortune of having to ditch the first of
that model aircraft rely on? Who tells him the best approach speed for that
bird, or the best escape routes out of the aircraft after impact, or the things
that he needs to do to give himself the best odds possible of surviving the
experience. If not the manufacturer, who? Somebody else who hasn't gone
through the drill?

George Z.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
. net...

"Autocollimator" wrote in message
...

No a surety, not just a possibility.


Nonsense. If aircraft always behaved as predicted there'd be no need to
test them.



Have you ever gotten off the ground in a miliatry aircraft?


Irrelevant.

I think it is relevant. If you had flown for one of the military services, a
lot of the things we're talking to you about would be things that you'd
experienced. Maybe it never occurred to you, never having experienced it, that
military flight manuals are constantly being updated as new information
regarding the aircraft is received, either from the manufacturer or from the
field. I flew I don't remember how many different kinds of aircraft, and I knew
how to ditch every one of them, and I learned how best to do it from constant
study of the flight manuals, which provided me with the most current data
available I needed in order to make good decisions.

I flew about 4,000 hours in my military career. I never ditched an airplane,
never bailed out of one, and walked away from every landing without even a
slight limp. Those are my credentials. There are guys who frequent this NG
with a helluva lot more than that, and they have my attention and respect. I
doubt that you're one of them.

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

Actually, some manufacturers (and maybe all, for all I know), did do
exactly that with scaled models of their new aircraft.


That's fine, but everything does not necessarily carry over to the actual
aircraft.



In any case, I'd rather have some applied theory from an aeronautical
engineer who
designed the aircraft than guesswork from somebody who thought he knew how
it
would react better than the bird's designers.


We're not talking about guesswork from somebody who thought he knew how it
would react better than the bird's designers, we're talking about the
collective experience of many actual ditchings. If you'd take applied
theory from an aeronautical engineer who designed the aircraft over the
collective experience of many actual ditchings, then you're an idiot.



Since you seem committed to pooh-pooh the manufacturer's knowledge no
matter what, what does the pilot who has the misfortune of having to ditch
the
first of that model aircraft rely on?


If I seem that way to you then you've read things into my messages that are
not there.

Hi George

Did you know any of the gang with the 54th ARSq. at Goose Air Base circa
1964?

Cheers...Chris