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#171
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On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:51:27 -0500, "Tony Volk"
wrote: The reason that A/A loaded F-4s got more kills is more subtle. It has to do with the politics of "ace-building" between the USN and USAF and the mis-guided over-classification of TEABALL. See Michel's Clashes or Thompson's "To Hanoi and Back". Escorts didn't even get many shots as they were often used to provide blocking or herding of MiGs to direct them to a kill zone where the 555th was being vectored on a discrete frequency to do the shooting. Hi Ed. Interesting comments. Was it just the Wolfpack who practiced herding Migs? (ironic, given their name!). "Wolfpack" (by Jerry Scutts) lists the 433rd as getting just about as many kills as the Triple Nickel. Were they part of the elite ace-building group too? The Wolfpack group doesn't go into much detail about any herding tactics (IIRC), so I'd love to hear more about them. And with the performance of a few key squadrons in GW I (e.g., 58th), it seems that such tactics might again be the case. Are there tactical advantages that justify committing aircraft to "herding" duty, or is it primarily PR-related in trying to make an ace? Thanks, Tony Two different campaigns involved. The "Wolf Pack" was the 8th Wg at Ubon, with most of the MiG kills coming under the leadership of Robin Olds from December of '66 through the cessation of Rolling Thunder in August of '68. The kills for the Triple Nickel come during LB in '72. At that time they were the focus of MiGCAP and got the latest goodies for the job, including Combat Tree, AIM-7E2, AIM-9J, "Agile Eagle" i.e. TCTO-566 with LES and TISEO (although they didn't get to do much with these). More importantly, the Nickel got packed with Fighter Weapons School guys who were trained in A/A and tightly integrated with GCI controllers. Add in the discrete frequencies, the special BVR ROE, the TEABALL data, etc. and you've got a pretty potent package. It's all a chess game and the "animals" being herded are cognitive, so whether it's tactically sound or not will be determined by the outcome. Clearly sweeps and pincers are pretty effective if you've got good sensor data. |
#172
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On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 11:50:40 -0600, Alan Minyard
wrote: Tony Williams Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk Military gun and ammunition discussion forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/ Of course the fact that the Mauser is produced by an enemy country, which is totally unreliable as a source of spares, is also a consideration. Oh christ, you really are that thick. I suggest you figure out where and who were going to be producing the BK27 variant for the JSF. greg -- Once you try my burger baby,you'll grow a new thyroid gland. I said just eat my burger, baby,make you smart as Charlie Chan. You say the hot sauce can't be beat. Sit back and open wide. |
#173
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On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 11:50:41 -0600, Alan Minyard
wrote: On 11 Dec 2003 23:50:31 -0800, (Tony Williams) wrote: The case rests... Tony Williams Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk Military gun and ammunition discussion forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/ Writing a book, and writing an accurate book, are two totally different propositions. You have succeeded in the first instance, let us know when you intend to start on the second. Coming from a self documenting f8ckwit who couldnt figure out that the BK27 variant as fitted to the JSF was american made, your notion of accuracy is ever so slightly suspect. greg -- Once you try my burger baby,you'll grow a new thyroid gland. I said just eat my burger, baby,make you smart as Charlie Chan. You say the hot sauce can't be beat. Sit back and open wide. |
#174
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But that's going opposite of the trend towards *less* types of airframes. That's why we've only got two near-future fighters in the US (long range fighter/attack and short-range fighter/attack), and why the Europeans are trying to go with *one* plane to do all jobs. The navy is going even further, to the point where it only plans on having F-18E/Fs and SH-60s on board carriers. Ron Pilot/Wildland Firefighter |
#175
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#176
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Chad Irby wrote in message . com...
In article , (Tony Williams) wrote: We know the Mauser works, too - it's been in service in large numbers for two decades. The initial assessments by the JSF team concluded that the Mauser was the most cost-effective choice, and they knew all about the GAU-12/U then. Part of that "cost effectiveness" appeared to be a lowball pricing structure that fell through on closer examination. Do you have a source to support that? You may be right, but I like to work on hard info rather than forum gossip. Tony Williams Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/ |
#178
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Alan Minyard wrote in message . ..
On 11 Dec 2003 17:44:42 -0800, (Tony Williams) wrote: Alan Minyard wrote in message . .. You have no idea. The Mauser was an inferior weapon. Sources for that statement, please. These quotes are from an official JSF press release: 'Citing lower costs, greater lethality and improved supportability, The Boeing Company has selected the Advanced 27mm Aircraft Cannon for its next generation JSF combat aircraft.....The gun is also a candidate for the Lockheed Martin version of the JSF...."It's the lightest, most accurate and reliable gun based on our initial studies" said Dennis Muilenburg, JSF weapon system director for Boeing. "Our comparative assessment found the 27mm cannon to be more affordable, more lethal and more supportable than any of its competitors".' Inferior, yeah. That release is ancient history, but the, you have never let the facts get in they way of your "opinions". I see. So any document which is, let's see, four years old, is automatically wrong? Please note that the opinions expressed in this release were not mine, but those of the JSF weapon system director for Boeing - and that Lockheed had independently chosen the BK 27 even earlier. So far, you have posted no facts, only opinions... If indeed the 27mm had become too expensive in the meantime, there is only one likely explanation: the Americans spent too much time futzing about with it to 'Americanise' it instead of simply adopting it. It's been a reliable and effective weapon in European service for about two decades in the Tornado and Alpha Jet, is also in service in the Gripen and is about to enter service in the Eurofighter Typhoon. The aircraft that you mention are not in the same league with the F-22 or the F-35. I know that it breaks your little heart, but we are talking real weapons, not the ones that you and Mr Arndt fanaticize about. My oh my. So now the Mauser BK 27 isn't even a 'real weapon', but is only a fantasy? I'm not the one veering off into fantasy here, and I'm clearly wasting my time trying to hold a rational discussion. If you have any factual evidence to back your assertions (assuming you would recognise it if you saw it), then call me. Otherwise, don't bother. Tony Williams Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/ |
#179
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#180
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"Brett" wrote in message ...
"Tony Williams" wrote: ... | USAF A-10 | aircraft achieved two helicopter kills with the GAU-8/A (using 275 and | 550 rounds respectively) in one case when the IR missiles failed to | lock on. How many rounds of 25mm or 27mm are they proposing to fit inside of USAF JSF? I don't know - I've never seen a figure quoted. Tony Williams Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/ |
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