The ethanol nightmare has arrived!

Peter Dohm wrote:
wrote in message
...
Peter Dohm wrote:
wrote in message
...

What else are you going to run your refrigerator, TV, airconditioning,
lighting, vacuum cleaner, computer, and lights on, natural gas?

--
Jim Pennino

No, although some smaller refrigerators can be operated that way. I am
just not sold on making transportation fully dependent on electric power
plants as well.

The energy density of electric storage devices are more than an order
of magnitude inadequate for that to happen and there are no potential
breakthroughs of even an order of magnitude on the horizon.


--
Jim Pennino

I believe that we are really in basic agreement. Electric energy storage is
more than an order of magnetude inadiquate to run our transporation system
on batteries, and the rest of the electric infrastructure seems equally
short of being able to work around that problem. Therefore, we will
continue to do as we have done for the foreseeable future.

Well, not quite.

Electric transportation will require a major breakthrough in battery
technology which may or may not ever happen, as well as increased grid
infrastructure.

Production of synthetic petroleum products from raw stock other than
crude oil requires that electricity production costs drop, which could
well happen if you are talking about on the ground facilities, and the
electric production facility need not be tied into the grid or anything
else other than the synthesis facility.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Peter Dohm wrote:
wrote in message
...
Morgans wrote:

"Peter Dohm" wrote

No, although some smaller refrigerators can be operated that way. I
am
just not sold on making transportation fully dependent on electric
power
plants as well.

They used to make natural gas (only) full sized refrigerators, and still
may.

They are still made for niche applications; you won't find one at
Home Depot.

Also, don't expect to make a lot of ice cubes with one of them as they
don't work all that well which is but one of the reasons you won't find
them in general use.

A buddy had a place that did not have electricity to it, except for a
small
generator, run only when absolutely necessary.

When he got it, (used) the guy he bought it from said that if it did not
start cooling soon after he lit it off, that he needed to shut it down,
and
turn it upside-down for 30 minutes or so, then turn it over and light it
off.

Damned if it needed it, and damned if that didn't fix it!

I worked off of an ammonia coolant cycle, as I recall.

Another reason you won't find them in general use.


--
Jim Pennino

Actually, I think that I heard they only might need to be tilted, but you
had to know which direction, and you are correct that ammonia was the
refrigerant.

In any case, there is a variant which can be operated on propane or
electric, and possibly a gas or electric version as well, that is sold for
the recretonal vehicle market. The full size gas only models were normally
sold by or through the loack gase companies, and may still be offered in
that manner as I have heard that they were very innexpensive to operate.

Yep, but when running on gas, they don't make ice cubes worth a damn; they
can't move heat fast enough.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

B A R R Y wrote:
On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 23:35:03 GMT, wrote:


California has a bigger county than some European countries.

California is also the world's 8th largest economy.

Yep, and also has electric trains for moving people along most of the
coast.

But it is diesel-electrics moving bulk cargo across the Mojave and
points east.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

"Jennifer Howland" wrote

On some train systems, at least some of this braking energy can be
diverted
back into the catenary to power other trains. I believe even the Acela
can do
this.
Of course, you know that you are talking two totally different kinds of
train systems.

Diesel electric trains run on tracks with NO electrical pickups on wires
above, or on a third rail.

That was the type being discussed, though.

I do wonder on systems that feed electricity back onto the line, since most
are AC, I believe, how do they match phases with the current already on the
line? That would be necessary.
--
Jim in NC

"Some Other Guy" wrote

It's just a hell of a clever plumbing arrangement. Add heat at one part
(by burning gas, whatever), and another part gets cold:

http://www.gasrefrigerators.com/howitworks.htm

If that isn't the best explanation I have ever seen.... Good pictures, too.
;-)

I guess that turning the thing upside down got the hydrogen back up (down)
in the reservoir, so that it could keep in the evaporation side once the
heat got things moving. That makes sense, now. At the time, with no
internet in '83, it seemed a bit like magic, to me! g
--
Jim in NC

"Some Other Guy" wrote

It's just a hell of a clever plumbing arrangement. Add heat at one part
(by burning gas, whatever), and another part gets cold:

http://www.gasrefrigerators.com/howitworks.htm

Ever wonder why they never became popular?

Morgans wrote:

"Jennifer Howland" wrote

On some train systems, at least some of this braking energy can be
diverted
back into the catenary to power other trains. I believe even the Acela
can do
this.
Of course, you know that you are talking two totally different kinds of
train systems.

Diesel electric trains run on tracks with NO electrical pickups on wires
above, or on a third rail.

That was the type being discussed, though.

I do wonder on systems that feed electricity back onto the line, since most
are AC, I believe, how do they match phases with the current already on the
line? That would be necessary.

Well, since frequency and phase out of a mechanical generator is RPM
dependent, you would either have to have an infinite ratio transmission
or a DC generator followed by a controllable inverter.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

wrote in :

Matt W. Barrow wrote:
wrote in message
...
Matt W. Barrow wrote:

Add ten years for the environmental impact report and another
ten for the lawsuits by the wack jobs claiming it will destroy
the planet.

So, are you saying the issue is one of bureaucracy, rather than
technological?

No.

As is usual for any discussion on matters of energy, the discussion
tends to focus on one issue and ignores the big picture.

And the "Big Picture" is... what, that is missing in my question to
your statement?

An understanding that just because I mentioned bureaucratic issues, it
does not mean those are the only issues, nor am I implying those are
the only issues, nor am I implying they are the most important issues.

They are simply one of many issues.

You want a list of issues?

Here's a quick one probably missing numerous items:

Can sustained man made fusion even be done?

Once fired up, would the plant have a continuous duty cycle or would
it need to be shut down now and then to maintain/refuel something?

If so, how often would that be?

What would the required capital cost to build a commercial plant be?

What would the life cycle cost of the plant be and the amortized cost
of the electricity generated?

How long can a plant be expected to last?

What are the safety issues? If something goes wrong will the fire just
go out or will there need to be safeguards to keep the plant from
vaporizing?

What, if any, waste products will be produced?

Will massive amounts of waste heat be generated requiring large
amounts of water to deal with the heat?

Would the waste heat have an impact on the local environment?

What is the required land area for a plant including any required
safety zones?

Will NIMBY's and Luddites block contruction of such a plant at every
turn?



Those aren't issues, those are questions that you have which you can
easily find answers to.



Bertie

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 00:25:04 GMT, wrote in
:

Electric transportation will require a major breakthrough in battery
technology which may or may not ever happen, as well as increased grid
infrastructure.

I look for the next venture cycle to be the installation of solar
generating equipment in industry and homes, much the same way the
dot-com Internet boom occurred. As it is, photovoltaic hardware
production significantly lags demand, but large productions facilities
are imminently due to become operational worldwide.

Locally generated power is destined to become mainstream if for no
other reason than the redundancy distributed power generation
provides.

"Matt W. Barrow" wrote in message
...

"Some Other Guy" wrote

It's just a hell of a clever plumbing arrangement. Add heat at one part
(by burning gas, whatever), and another part gets cold:

http://www.gasrefrigerators.com/howitworks.htm

Ever wonder why they never became popular?


Nope. My grandfolks said the gas refrigerators were a lot more convenient
than carrying 50 pound blocks of ice up the stairs.

Peter