Gas Prices -- Help at last?

Your route sounds like an even better candidate for a bicycle
commute.

Yes, if you live in the south. Bikes only work about half the year
here in northern PA.

What causes them to cease functioning the other half of the year?

If you meant "it's too cold to ride", consider about twice as many people
regularily commute by bicycle in PA than in GA...

http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/survey/commuter.htm

JohnH wrote:

Your route sounds like an even better candidate for a bicycle
commute.

Yes, if you live in the south. Bikes only work about half the year
here in northern PA.


What causes them to cease functioning the other half of the year?

Snow and ice mainly and the road salt would likely ruin a bike in now
time at all. I can just see the alloy parts after two weeks of riding
in road salt.


If you meant "it's too cold to ride", consider about twice as many people
regularily commute by bicycle in PA than in GA...

Cold is a problem also. I live 22 miles from where I work and it takes
me 90 minutes to ride that far in the summer (hint: it isn't level where
I live). That would be a long ride wearing a lot of clothes at zero or
below.


http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/survey/commuter.htm

I'm not surprised. Most northerners are a lot tougher than southerners.
:-)


Matt

"Dave S" wrote in message
nk.net...


Matt Barrow wrote:

WHINE !! BITCH!! MOAN!! NOT IN MY BACK YARD!! I want gas! I want cheap
gas!! I want this I want that!

Grow the **** up, America!!


Matt, let me know when you can debate something without resorting to
personal attacks or insults, then I will debate it with you.

Well, Dave, my apologies because my last point was a general take, not
directed to you (notice I said' Grow up America", not "Grow up, Dave"). I
notice you have very strong leanings and understanding toward free markets.
I'm not concerned about you selling short :~)

I do know I tend to lose it when people make foolish caveats especially ones
that are logical fallacies such as "without all this regulation we'd be in
(insert Armageddon class crisis)".


And.. I don't work in academia. I actually work for a living.

That helps, but those in academia consider that they "work for a living",
too. What's more, working for a living is no basis for understanding how
markets work. Even many managers don't "get it". Many are hired for their
political acumen, not for their knowledge or leadership qualities.


I also dont consider myself whining about prices for gas. I pay for it as
I go. Its nice to have enough disposable income to do so without
flinching.

The refineries ARE in my back yard. They pay their share in property taxes
to the localities and school systems. They also provide jobs to the
economy. I'd love for them to expand, and provide more capital to our
infrastructure here. But not at the cost of polluting unnecessarily.

Yes, indeed. Thing is, like so much of life, regulation stopped having a
goal (reduced pollution) and became a goal in itself (i.e., self-serving
bureaucracies). For example, years ago, when the coal fired power plants
were first required to install "scrubbers", they regulations stipulated
levels caps for emissions. They were also ordered to install specific
equipment to reach those levels. As it was, the equipment mandated was
egregiously costly and maintenance was enormous. It also created a lot of
toxic waste to be disposed of. It turned out that emissions could have been
as good or better using other means of emissions reductions with less cost
and less maintenance. That's why I'm very skeptical of the fallacies that
"without all these regulations, ...blah, blah, blah).


Anyways, unless you have something meaningful to contribute to this rather
than unwarranted insults, I will leave you to your rant.

My rant addresses so many people that become enamored with a pristine world
and completely miss the points that, first, every advantage has it's costs,
that actions have consequences including "Unintended Consequences".

I also notice a strong propensity for those who demand a risk free life, a
pristine world, and great prosperity, are often the most vocal when their
actions play out. It's an attitude that is understandable for children, but
inexcusable for adults. Hence my admonishment to Americans in general to
"grow up". Such childish perspective is becoming the rule, rather than the
exception. That there is no Santa Claus is apparently missed by wayyy to
many.

Rant to continue later :~)

Dave, I consider you an ally, not an adversary in this topic. If my take was
fuzzy (duh!), my apologies.


--
Matt

---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...

(You mentioned that refining capacity has grown despie the reduced number of
actual refineries)

(18.6 Mbbl in 1981 vs 16.8Mbbl today)

http://www.investors.com/editorial/I...0051010&view=1

/excerpt

Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., falsely claimed that the "major
oil companies haven't even tried to build one single new refinery in this
country in 30 years" and that they "do not really want to expand refinery
capacity because it would cut into their record-setting profits."

The fact is they increased capacity and use at least on a
refinery-by-refinery basis. In 1981, the U.S. had 324 refineries with a
total capacity of processing 18.6 million barrels of crude per day. Today
just 149 refineries have a daily capacity of 16.8 million barrels.

The refineries are doing more than ever, but their numbers are dwindling and
no new ones are being built. The reason is not greed, but cost and
regulations. From 1994 to 2003, the refining industry spent $47.4 billion
not to build new refineries, but to bring existing ones into compliance with
environmental rules. That's where those "profits" go.

The last refinery built in the U.S. was in Garyville, La., in 1976.

Twenty-nine years later, approval of a new refinery could require as many as
800 different permits.

And just where would you build it? After Hampton Roads Energy Corp. proposed
a refinery near Portsmouth, Va., in the late 1970s, environmental groups and
local residents fought the plan. After court battles in front of federal and
state regulators, the firm gave up and canceled the project in 1984.

/end excerpt

Cold is a problem also. I live 22 miles from where I work and it
takes me 90 minutes to ride that far in the summer (hint: it isn't
level where I live). That would be a long ride wearing a lot of
clothes at zero or below.

Then don't ride a bike if it's too hard for you; not everyone is capable of
it. I'm not sure how you felt this was directed to you anyway; I was simply
pointing out to Jay that a 4 mile commute is usually quite practical via
bicycle. If it's really bad weather, use another means or better yet stay
home or at the inn.

http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/survey/commuter.htm

I'm not surprised. Most northerners are a lot tougher than
southerners. :-)

In which case a 22 miler ought to be a piece of cake for a tough northerner
like you! :-)

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 02:40:56 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


"JohnH" wrote

But even if you were completely adverse to riding in bad weather (not
*cold*
mind you), what does that really reduce your # of cycling days by? A
couple
weeks a year?

OOOOhhhh. You haven't spent much time in Iowa, have you?

There is also a factor of arriving to work so sweaty in the summer, that
nobody can stand getting near you for the rest of the day. Also, it does
get really hot there, and you can't take enough off to stay cool, unlike
rutting more on for the cold. Cold is also a real excuse, when you talk
about getting frostbite from a half hour outside, in the wind. Oh, did we
mention that it gets windy there?

One year, my wife and I took our road bikes to Oshkosh. We were able
to ride them on the grounds until about 3 days before the fly-in
proper opened. We then took them out to the stand "On the hill" by the
bus stop. When ready to fly home, we put them on the "welcome wagon"
for a ride to the Deb.

We stayed in town. Weather was near 100 most of the time, but for two
days where it was cold, windy and rain. Riding in 100 degrees
wasn't all that bad. It was when you stopped it got miserable.
Did I mention I came down with one of the worst colds I've ever had
the night after we arrived?

Every place I've worked had showers. Even when I worked 18 miles from
here we had one younger guy who rode his bike nearly every day unless
the weather was *really* bad. Really bad means thunderstorms and wind
too strong to ride, or ice on the roads. He didn't ride when the
temps got much below 15 degrees, but he'd ride in rain so heavy my
windshield wipers would hardly take care of it.

He'd get to work, shed his rain gear, take a shower and head for the
office. When I worked at the main plant here in town we had a number
of people who rode in, including some upper management. I know one
who was making well up into the 6 figure range. Normally they'd all
head for the showers as soon as they made it to work.

If Midland were laid out differently I'd bet we'd have hundreds of
workers riding into town. The problem is the town is bisected by a
river with only two bridges. A third river coming in from the WSW
joins the first river right between the two bridges. No place in town
is more than about 6 miles from me with the airport only being a tad
over 4, but it takes 10.6 to get there. The shortest route is via
suicide alley where no one with an IQ over 70 would ride. The safest
is across the other bridge which is only about 3/4 of a mile from the
first, BUT you have to travel 5 to 6 miles farther to get to it.
There's another river in the way and that can only be crossed 4 miles
west of town where you then have to go nearly 3 miles south and then 3
miles back north to get to the bridge. If you live north of the
express way (US-10) there is no safe route into town via bike. Heavy
traffic on narrow streets/roads with no, or almost no shoulders. No
place to be on a bike.

They really are working on making our streets bicycle friendly.
and plans call for bike lanes although we'll have to watch for
impatient drivers passing on the shoulder. We have a very long way to
go before getting any where near as bike friendly as Boulder Co.

OTOH my wife is getting rid of her 37 MPG mini, mini van and replacing
it with a Prius. Now if I could get that kind of gain with a
replacement for the 4-Runner which gets 18 MPG around town. Anyone
make a SUV that gets 36 MPG that I can afford?

Some have mentioned losing jobs to low cost labor, but several
corporations have mentioned opening plants in other countries due to
low energy costs compared to here. Depending on the product, a high
tech chemical company doesn't save nearly as much on cheap labor as
they do with cheap energy.

In our specific area we don't have all that many unskilled jobs as
most of the work around here is high tech due to the nature of the
work, not that we can get labor cheaper some where else.

We do have a lot of farms that could use unskilled help in the summer,
but try and find someone who'll work out in the field.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"Roger" wrote in message
...


Snip

He'd get to work, shed his rain gear, take a shower and head for the
office. When I worked at the main plant here in town we had a number
of people who rode in, including some upper management. I know one
who was making well up into the 6 figure range. Normally they'd all
head for the showers as soon as they made it to work.

Would that be the Dow plant?

If Midland were laid out differently I'd bet we'd have hundreds of
workers riding into town. The problem is the town is bisected by a
river with only two bridges. A third river coming in from the WSW
joins the first river right between the two bridges.

Snip

Ahhh, "The Tridge", I remember it well...

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ
- CMU grad 1984
- Former intern in Dow Chemical's PR Dept
- Married to a Mount Pleasant "townie"

"Matt Barrow" wrote:

... I tend to lose it when people make foolish caveats especially ones
that are logical fallacies such as "without all this regulation we'd
be in (insert Armageddon class crisis)".

....or "without all this regulation we'd be in (insert free market
Utopia)."

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

You still don't get it. The number of refineries doesn't matter...the
output does.

Actually, we do a agree on that.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

It is they who have suffered the brunt of the crazy, over-blown
environmental regulations. That smell you and I haughtily disdained was
the smell of money to them and their families.

Right, cost of labor has nothing to do with losing all those blue-collar
jobs. And it probably really was environmental regulations that led to the
average American hourly labor rate of $18 plus benefits versus about $1.50
in China.

Of course, there are many facets to the problem -- wages being one of them.

But that's a different thread.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"