The new Fork Tailed Doctor Killer

Time moves along... The old V-tails are no longer the status symbol...
It appears to me that the Cirrus line of aircraft has become the new
"fork tailed doctor killer", along with stock broker, dentist, lawyer,
etc...

http://tinyurl.com/yqt94a

denny

Denny,

It appears to me that the Cirrus line of aircraft has become the new
"fork tailed doctor killer", along with stock broker, dentist, lawyer,
etc...


And the statistics you base that "appearance" in can be found where? I'd
be very interested...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

I've heard the therm "doctor killer" before, but I have no idea how it
came to be. Where did it come from? (I have an idea, but I've been
wronf sooooo many times ...)

AJ wrote:
I've heard the therm "doctor killer" before, but I have no idea how it
came to be. Where did it come from? (I have an idea, but I've been
wronf sooooo many times ...)
The term had its origin during the time period after the initial release
of the Bonanza. The aircraft was and still is extremely clean
aerodynamically. It didn't suffer fools gladly in single engine IFR.
Unfortunately, its price tag and performance figured right in the range
where Doctors and other professional people had access.
What was unfortunately happening was that a lot of these pilots were
getting Instrument Ratings and buying these airplanes with minimum
actual instrument time. A lot of Bo's were lost due to structrual
failure caused by these low time pilots entering marginal or full IFR
conditions then allowing the nose of the airplane to lower in turns.
The Bo built up speed nose low like an express train. Many of these
pilots apparently tried to raise the nose without solving the bank issue
first, which of course tightened the spiral. This led to ultimate
failures of the airframe and subsequent fatalities.
I remember two such incidents personally.
The reputation of the Bo was in part the result of what I have described
above.

--
Dudley Henriques

Tom, don't have statistic 'one'... What I do have is a set of MK-I
eyeballs... And I know what I see at the airports, and I know what the
'professionals' in my area are buying...
Of the 3 new Cirrus in the area, each one is owned by a professional
who is light in cross country, hi-perf, flying time and heavy in the
wallet... One has already given up flying after pranging his Cirrus 20
for the third time in 18 months and losing his insurance... Good
thing, as we had him ear marked for a black ribbon on the wall... The
other two are still a work in progress...


What I see is the hard charging, 40 something, professionals, buying
this machine and taking it into sloppy weather, going skiing, night
time mountain departures, canyon flying including NYC, and so on...
Just like they used to do with the V-Tails... In sloppy weather -
200/300 and a half - we get primarily two kinds of airplanes hitting
the ramp at my hangout... Pro pilot turbine stuff, and
'professionals' driving a Cirrus or a Malibu... Seems like more Cirrus
in recent years...

denny

On Mar 17, 10:46*am, Denny wrote:
Tom, don't have statistic 'one'... *What I do have is a set of MK-I
eyeballs... And I know what I see at the airports, and I know what the
'professionals' in my area are buying...
Of the 3 new Cirrus in the area, each one is owned by a professional
who is light in cross country, hi-perf, flying time and heavy in the
wallet... One has already given up flying after pranging his Cirrus 20
for the third time in 18 months and losing his insurance... Good
thing, as we had him ear marked for a black ribbon on the wall... *The
other two are still a work in progress...

What I see is the hard charging, 40 something, professionals, buying
this machine and taking it into sloppy weather, *going skiing, night
time mountain departures, canyon flying including NYC, and so on...
Just like they used to do with the V-Tails... *In sloppy weather *-
200/300 and a half - *we get primarily two kinds of airplanes hitting
the ramp at my hangout... *Pro pilot turbine stuff, and
'professionals' driving a Cirrus or a Malibu... Seems like more Cirrus
in recent years...

denny

Denny,

The fault is not the airplane, it is and always has been this class of
pilot. Piloting is primarily a skillset of judgement and caution,
along with plane handling skills. Many who get into flying tend to
think that plane handling skills are primary, when in fact they are
secondary to judgement, planning and caution. Anyone who pushes their
own limits too far is likely to wind up a statistic.

The simple fact that Cirrus is outselling most other models means that
statistically you are going to have more low time cocky types flying
them, and that is what also gave the Bonanza its reputation.
Arrogance, in flying, is the deadliest sin.

Dean

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 10:35:59 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Mar 17, 10:46*am, Denny wrote:
Tom, don't have statistic 'one'... *What I do have is a set of MK-I
eyeballs... And I know what I see at the airports, and I know what the
'professionals' in my area are buying...
Of the 3 new Cirrus in the area, each one is owned by a professional
who is light in cross country, hi-perf, flying time and heavy in the
wallet... One has already given up flying after pranging his Cirrus 20
for the third time in 18 months and losing his insurance... Good
thing, as we had him ear marked for a black ribbon on the wall... *The
other two are still a work in progress...

What I see is the hard charging, 40 something, professionals, buying
this machine and taking it into sloppy weather, *going skiing, night
time mountain departures, canyon flying including NYC, and so on...
Just like they used to do with the V-Tails... *In sloppy weather *-
200/300 and a half - *we get primarily two kinds of airplanes hitting
the ramp at my hangout... *Pro pilot turbine stuff, and
'professionals' driving a Cirrus or a Malibu... Seems like more Cirrus
in recent years...

denny

Denny,

The fault is not the airplane, it is and always has been this class of
pilot. Piloting is primarily a skillset of judgement and caution,

To me that's what he said. The cirrus has earned/taken the title from
the Bo.

IOW it's the 100 MPH mind in a 200 MPH + airplane.

along with plane handling skills. Many who get into flying tend to
think that plane handling skills are primary, when in fact they are

That may be partially true, but the Bo and Cirrus are not like flying
the old Cessna or Cherokee. In many of them you can climb to 10,000
feet faster than you can safely descend back to the airport. Even with
the gear down "down and welded" the Cirrus is like flying a fairly
heavy single retract with the gear up. All too often pilots still
think of it as a fixed gear airplane with the old "fixed gear"
performance.

They are not gentle and mild mannered like the 150, 172, or Cherokee
line. They are heavier and they are slipperier than snot on a
doorknob. That means when they start accelerating down hill the pilot
only has a fraction of the time to safely get things under control IF
they do every thing right, compared to the old Cessna.

Piloting skills are _extra_important with the Bo and the new
generation of plastic airplanes. A mistake that would be of no
concern in a Cherokee or 172 can rapidly become life threatening in
these planes. IOW these planes are demanding! The do not suffer the
incompetent well.

secondary to judgement, planning and caution. Anyone who pushes their
own limits too far is likely to wind up a statistic.

Judgmental and planning have always been right up there, but the
change to a 200 MPH plus airplane means the pilot has to think much
farther ahead. In these planes you have to know how far out you will
have to start your descent whether VFR or IFR. If IFR ATC isn't going
to always start you down as soon as needed. I've almost always had to
ask to start down for the approach. If at 7000 and cruise I need to
start down about 40 miles out for a cruise descent to be leveled off
and slowed to approach speed. Miss that by a minute late and ATC will
be vectoring me back around to pick up the approach and they expect me
to know better (which I do) Otherwise it's extra single pilot work
after a long flight.


The simple fact that Cirrus is outselling most other models means that

Although most might disagree, the Cirrus is an inexpensive airplane
that gives speed, comfort, class, and long legs. inexpensive is a
relative term, but when compared to other planes of the same
capabilities the price of most run about 50% or even more than the
Cirrus. An A36 which admittedly has a lot more room can easily run 60
to 70% more

statistically you are going to have more low time cocky types flying
them, and that is what also gave the Bonanza its reputation.
Arrogance, in flying, is the deadliest sin.

I'd say it'd be Invulnerability and complacency. Less arrogance and
more of the 100 MPH mind in the 200 MPH airplane.

In these planes you have to have "It *all* together". Piloting
skills, attitude, judgmental skills, and weather knowledge must all be
present and polished.

I've spent many hours just mucking around in marginal conditions in a
Cherokee 180 and in the Deb. In the Cherokee I could almost always
say, "well it looks like it's getting a bit thicker and worse ahead so
we'd better turn around" While in the Deb at near 200 MPH it basically
goes from marginal to "where'd everything go?" in the blink of an eye.
Even being able to file you still have to have every thing ready and
the mind set to fly IFR. When I say being ready to file I mean
*competent* and polished not just current.

Dean
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:17:19 -0400, Roger
wrote:

In these planes you have to have "It *all* together". Piloting
skills, attitude, judgmental skills, and weather knowledge must all be
present and polished.

I've spent many hours just mucking around in marginal conditions in a
Cherokee 180 and in the Deb. In the Cherokee I could almost always
say, "well it looks like it's getting a bit thicker and worse ahead so
we'd better turn around" While in the Deb at near 200 MPH it basically
goes from marginal to "where'd everything go?" in the blink of an eye.
Even being able to file you still have to have every thing ready and
the mind set to fly IFR. When I say being ready to file I mean
*competent* and polished not just current.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


Well said.

To accomplish such polished competency requires regular use and
maintenance. I'd say a minimum of a cross country flight or more
weekly.

"Denny" wrote:

What I see is the hard charging, 40 something, professionals, buying
this machine and taking it into sloppy weather, going skiing, night
time mountain departures, canyon flying including NYC, and so on...
Just like they used to do with the V-Tails... In sloppy weather -
200/300 and a half -

Cirrus marketing must come in for some of the blame for this.

They've always sold the idea that the airplane has a safety edge because of
its avionics (not anymore) and parachute. I think new pilots with money
believe it. How can such a slick, technically advanced vehicle get them
into trouble? They don't have the experience to realize that it's still an
airplane and it will auger in just like any of them if they fly it when or
where they shouldn't.

That said, I think the SR-22 is a terrific airplane, especially the model
with a TAT on it. If only the wings were in the right place...

--
Dan

T-182T at 4R4

Denny,

Tom, don't have statistic 'one'... What I do have is a set of MK-I
eyeballs... And I know what I see at the airports, and I know what the
'professionals' in my area are buying...


Well, that's all fine and dandy, but it is not how statistics or
accident analysis work. The earth seems pretty flat when ssen with my
eyeballs, too...

All I'm trying to say is: Before dissing an airplane and its
manufacturer plus trampling on certain professions, I'd like to see the
facts.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)