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#11
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KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required
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#12
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KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required
On Mar 11, 8:09*pm, Sam Spade wrote:
wrote: On Mar 11, 5:10 pm, Sam Spade wrote: No glide slope for a LOC appraoch :-) to determine DH. There is a timing table to determine the LOC MAP. But of course you do know that the timing table is based on GS. * What if your GS was 68 knots Sam? DME is your ONLY source to ensure that you are at MAP along WITH timing. * If you want to descend below MDA based on time alone AND no DME, I sure wouldn't want to fly with you. Of course I do NOT know that. *The timing table is for the LOC MAP. *DA is your MAP for the ILS. This newsgroup is so lacking in the fundamentals. You imply Sam that timing alone is how you determine the MAP. I say it's not. DME determines when you can go below MDA which would be at MAP not 3 minutes 12 seconds. Be my guest on descending below MDA at 3:12 without DME Sam. I won't be in the plane with you as you come up short or even overshoot the MAP due to headwinds or tailwind considerations. |
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KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required
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#14
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KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required
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#15
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KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required
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#16
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KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required
" wrote
You imply Sam that timing alone is how you determine the MAP. I say it's not. DME determines when you can go below MDA which would be at MAP not 3 minutes 12 seconds. SAY WHAT!!! Let's take a look at the definition of MDA: "A specified altitude referenced to sea level for a non-precision approach below which descent must not be made until the required visual reference to continue the approach to land has been established." It's pretty clear that we're not supposed to go below the published MDA on a non-precision approach, unless we can see enough to descend and land. The MAP has nothing to do with it except that we can't continue the approach to land after reaching the MAP. It seems to me that everyone is missing the main point about "DME Required" is that it is NOT required....normally, that is. Since The name of the proceedure does not include "DME" as in LOC/DME, timing is a perfectly acceptable method of determining the MAP for the LOC approach. In all cases where timing may not be used, the procedure must be annotated “timing not authorized for defining MAPt.” Note where "DME Required" does appear....in the note section about raising the minimum DA/MDA when the local altimeter setting is not available. I suspect that the answer to the OP's question is in here somewhere. Recommended reading http://www.faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/l....aspx?id=17273 Some general copy and paste from the Instrument Flying Handbook.... APPROACH CHART NAMING CONVENTIONS Individual NACO charts are identified on both the top and the bottom of the page by their procedure name (based on the NAVAIDs required for the final approach), runway served, and airport location. APPROACH CHART NOTES The navigation equipment that is required to join and fly an instrument approach procedure is indicated by the title of the procedure and notes on the chart. Straight-in IAPs are identified by the navigation system by providing the final approach guidance and the runway with which the approach is aligned (for example, VOR RWY 13). Circling-only approaches are identified by the navigation system by providing final approach guidance and a letter (for example, VOR A). More than one navigation system separated by a slant indicates that more than one type of equipment must be used to execute the final approach (for example, VOR/DME RWY 31). More than one navigation system separated by the word “or” indicates either type of equipment can be used to execute the final approach (for example,VOR or GPS RWY 15). When radar or other equipment is required on portions of the procedure outside the final approach segment, including the missed approach, a note is charted in the notes box of the pilot briefing portion of the approach chart (for example, RADAR REQUIRED or DME REQUIRED). On some nonprecision approaches, the MAP is given as a fixed distance with an associated time from the FAF to the MAP based on the groundspeed of the aircraft. A table on the lower right hand side of the approach chart shows the distance in NM from the FAF to the MAP and the time it takes at specific groundspeeds, given in 30- knot increments. Pilots must determine the approximate groundspeed and time based on the approach speed and true airspeed of their aircraft and the current winds along the final approach course. A clock or stopwatch should be started at the FAF of an approach requiring this method. When a missed approach is executed prior to reaching the MAP, the pilot is required to continue along the final approach course, at an altitude above the DA, DH, or MDA, until reaching the MAP before making any turns. If a turn is initiated prior to the MAP, obstacle clearance is not guaranteed. Bob Moore ATP CFII PanAm (retired) |
#17
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KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required
On Mar 12, 9:41*am, Robert Moore wrote:
" *wrote It's pretty clear that we're not supposed to go below the published MDA on a non-precision approach, unless we can see enough to descend and land. The MAP has nothing to do with it except that we can't continue the approach to land after reaching the MAP. Bob, Bear with me on this. Are you suggesting or saying it's ok to go below MDA BEFORE the MAP???? I was taught NEVER to descend below DH for the ILS or MDA before the MAP for non precision approaches such as VOR alpha or LOC. My point to Sam was that timing alone with wind consideration is not enough to descend below MDA which again I was taught never descend below BEFORE the MAP. DME is the constant factor to finding MAP on this approach, not timing since there are no intersecting radials to identify MAP. Timing helps but since GS will vary based on wind conditions, timing ALONE shouldn't be used to determine MAP. This is what I was taught for what it's worth. |
#18
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KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required
On Mar 12, 9:24*am, Sam Spade wrote:
wrote: There are bunches of IAPs with timing tables but no DME. *There is a buffer in TERPs for timing errors. *But, you obviously don't understand any of this. Show me one that doesn't have a DME and NO intersecting radial or intersection to identify the MAP. I would be interested in this. |
#19
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KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required
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#20
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KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required
" wrote
Bear with me on this. Are you suggesting or saying it's ok to go below MDA BEFORE the MAP???? MAP has NOTHING to do with MDA I was taught NEVER to descend below DH for the ILS or MDA before the MAP for non precision approaches such as VOR alpha or LOC. DA IS the MAP for ILS, You may descend below the MDA ANYTIME that you see the runway and can execute a safe landing. Most of the time, the MAP for a VOR/LOC is over the end of the runway...how are you expected to land from about 500' over the end of the runway? My point to Sam was that timing alone with wind consideration is not enough to descend below MDA which again I was taught never descend below BEFORE the MAP. You were taught incorrectly. Timing alone is sufficient to define the MAP, but that has NOTHING to do with descending from the MDA. Timing helps but since GS will vary based on wind conditions, timing ALONE shouldn't be used to determine MAP. Not what the FAA says. Did you read my entire post? This is what I was taught for what it's worth. Better get a better instructor. Of course when one thinks about the Colgon Air crash, that might be kinda hard to do these days. The FAA Instrument Flying Handbook is available from http://faasafety.gov/ Bob Moore CFIIing since 1970 |
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