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#11
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What do you think of the 13.5 Meter Class?
On Jan 25, 10:41*am, Mark Jardini wrote:
I don't see how everyone would win a 13 meter competition. 1-26er's only have one winner and that class has developed some pretty top pilots. So what exactly is the problem with owners of 13 meter ships wanting to hold contests? Some of you guys are extremely defensive about your wing size. Mark Jardini I fly a 13 meter Apis. I really like it and it seems to go XC quite well. I am considering installing the retractable landing gear option in it, not only will the LD go up, but it should look a lot nicer w/o that chunk of rubber sticking out the bottom. I think the fellow who made the "politically correc" joke about everyone being a winner is still probably giggling hysterically about his clever post, we'll just ignore him................. Brad |
#12
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What do you think of the 13.5 Meter Class?
On Jan 25, 4:27*pm, Brad wrote:
On Jan 25, 10:41*am, Mark Jardini wrote: I don't see how everyone would win a 13 meter competition. 1-26er's only have one winner and that class has developed some pretty top pilots. So what exactly is the problem with owners of 13 meter ships wanting to hold contests? Some of you guys are extremely defensive about your wing size. Mark Jardini I fly a 13 meter Apis. I really like it and it seems to go XC quite well. I am considering installing the retractable landing gear option in it, not only will the LD go up, but it should look a lot nicer w/o that chunk of rubber sticking out the bottom. I think the fellow who made the "politically correc" joke about everyone being a winner is still probably giggling hysterically about his clever post, we'll just ignore him................. Brad I just think that I should make it my life goal to take the Cherokee to a world championship someday. |
#13
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What do you think of the 13.5 Meter Class?
On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 13:54:37 -0800, silentpilot wrote:
So what exactly is the problem with owners of 13 meter ships wanting to hold contests? There is a new generation of short wing gliders that are totally different: with modern materials is now possible to built light weight sailplanes, shorter wing span and good L/D ratio that can climb better then the others, but at high speed they have no polar, they sink like stones. How does the speed for best L/D compare with std class gliders? I think this is a meaningless comparison without knowing that, particularly as I'd expect a modern section to have a better high speed polar. I have only an anecdotal data point to add: one of the Aerovironment guys, who I met briefly at a FF model contest, has a Sparrowhawk, which is a glider I've yet to see but am very curious about. During a chat he said he'd flown with a Standard Libelle, which I fly, and thought their performance was very similar. Of course they do not go very far because of the very light weight. An obvious similarity is that both gliders have wing areas that are smaller than the norm: the Std Libelle is 9.8 m^2 vs around 10.5 m^2 for most std class gliders. Presumably in both cases this was done to get an acceptable cruising speed from a light airframe. Libelles go cross country pretty well, so why are you implying that the new generation of light 13m gliders won't? -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | |
#14
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What do you think of the 13.5 Meter Class?
Martin Gregorie wrote:
How does the speed for best L/D compare with std class gliders? I think this is a meaningless comparison without knowing that, particularly as I'd expect a modern section to have a better high speed polar. I have only an anecdotal data point to add: one of the Aerovironment guys, who I met briefly at a FF model contest, has a Sparrowhawk, which is a glider I've yet to see but am very curious about. During a chat he said he'd flown with a Standard Libelle, which I fly, and thought their performance was very similar. Of course they do not go very far because of the very light weight. An obvious similarity is that both gliders have wing areas that are smaller than the norm: the Std Libelle is 9.8 m^2 vs around 10.5 m^2 for most std class gliders. Presumably in both cases this was done to get an acceptable cruising speed from a light airframe. Libelles go cross country pretty well, so why are you implying that the new generation of light 13m gliders won't? The SparrowHawk has an 11 meter span, so I'd assume a modern 13 meter glider should be capable of better performance than a Std Libelle. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org |
#15
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What do you think of the 13.5 Meter Class?
On Jan 25, 7:58*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
...I'd assume a modern 13 meter glider should be capable of better performance than a Std Libelle. I still think that the minimum span for a person-carrying sailplane of 40:1 L/D is 14.3m. I think you could match the Libelle's 38:1 with about 13.6m. Thanks, Bob K. |
#16
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What do you think of the 13.5 Meter Class?
Gliderphud wrote:
We added the Standard class so we would have cheaper gliders than the 15M. Is there a real difference in price between a 15M and a Standard today? Your history is backwards. "We" added Standard Class so we would have cheaper gliders than Open(?) Class (I don't know what it was called then). One result was the Ka-6e, and yes, it was a lot cheaper than competitive gliders of the time (early 60s). When the 15 meter span H301 Libelle appeared in the late '60s, it was an OPEN class glider. The 15 Meter class did not appear until the early 70's, as an branch from the Standard Class. Yep, Standard Class first, 15 M class later. We added the 18M class because the glider manufacturers weren't selling enough 15M and Standard class gliders anymore. That way they could create an elite class that would drive everyone to buy a new glider. In fact, it was driven by customer demand. Pilots wanted more performance, and the 20+ meter Open Class was too expensive, too big, too heavy to appeal to most pilots, so the manufacturers responded with wing tip extensions. First came 16 meter tips, then 17 meter, and finally carbon fiber made 18 M practical (fiberglass made for very heavy 18 meter gliders) about the time people realized self-launching motorgliders would really benefit from 18 meter span. When I got my 18 meter (and it was ONLY 18 meters) ASH 26 E in 1995, there was no 18 meter class. That came later, after Schleicher was already committed to it, not before. How many true 15M or Standards have been sold in the last 7 years? Everything has an 18M option and the cost and empty weights have gone up exponentially. Costs, yes, but for many reasons. Weight? Nonsense. Compare the weight of the 18 M ASG 29 with the 15 M ASW 20, and see if you think the weight increase was "exponential". It weighs the same, or less than the ASW 20 C I had. We will create the 13.5M and 20M class soon. The IGC has never seen a glider class they won't approve. Soon we will have 20 or more classes. Let's just skip the trouble and make a class for everyone so we're all winners. The only three classes we need are Club, 15M and Open (Unlimited) And what is the definition of "need"? That's the question. If a class for everyone increased participation and brought new people into soaring, I'd say we "need" it! -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org |
#17
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What do you think of the 13.5 Meter Class?
Someone observed...
Some of you guys are extremely defensive about your wing size. Heh. And stepping briefly onto a soapbox... Given the generally-accepted sorry state of soaring and it's 'growth' around the globe these years, I genuinely cringe upon encountering the too-commonly expressed statement/implication that anything under 15 meters isn't: a) capable of XC; b) somehow 'unworthy' of real gliderpilots. I cringe not because I disagree with the sentiments (though I do), but because I think propounding the belief has real potential to be actively detrimental to the future of the sport, particularly when considering how a newbie might view the world. Anything we do or say which actually - or indirectly - raises the barriers to entry isn't good. IMVHO. So let's not do it? (What a concept!) Clearly, the facts are 15 meter ships have been - and continue to be - flown XC 'all the time' in the U.S. - east and west (the U.S. being the country with which I'm most familiar). As for whether or not these pilots are 'real pilots,' my vote is to save your opinions for 0'beer-thirty discussions... I've no problem with loving whatever class of glider one presently flies, nor with propounding the advantages of it. Nor do I have a problem with anyone holding factually incorrect views on XC performance requirements. But please don't put forth your views as facts in arenas where lower-time/uninformed/wannabe-XC pilots might be (inaccurately) influenced. Hops off soabbox... Regards, Bob - all soaring/XC is good, regardless of wingspan - W. |
#18
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Quote:
Such a very amazing link! Thanks you for the post. |
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