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#12
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Big John wrote:
Pilots did NOT fly. Big J... 91.17 (a) no person may act or attempt to act as a crewmember of a civil aircraft (w/in 8 hrs, while under influence, 0.04 blood alcohol) I know these guys weren't flying under Pt. 91, but I've been corrected before that Part 121 encompassess the Pt 91 regs then adds additional, it doesn't supercede them. So wrt Federal regulation, it would seem that getting into the plane with the intent to fly it, getting ready for flight, and ordering pushback sure counts as "act or attempt to act as a crewmember". Even if they taxied the plane, is there any rule that says they have to be sober to do so??? See above; I read it that way, but perhaps I'm missing something? Cheers, Sydney |
#13
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Pilots did NOT fly.
91.17 (a) no person may act or attempt to act as a crewmember of a civil aircraft (w/in 8 hrs, while under influence, 0.04 blood alcohol) .... And the lawyer says they were taxing to check out the brake system at which time they would decide to fly or return for maintenance. The regulation doesn't require any intent to fly. Just 'acting' or 'attempting to act as a crewmemeber ... Maintenance personnel (not pilots) often taxi planes on the ground (if checked out in taxiing). If one of these had been drinking what FAA rule says they can't taxi with no intent to fly, only reposition bird on airport? 91.17 -- acting as a crewmember (operating the aircraft to reposition it, in this case) |
#14
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Big John wrote: Even if they taxied the plane, is there any rule that says they have to be sober to do so??? Yes, the same rule that says you can't fly. |
#15
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Big John wrote: Our tort system may well grab this episode and the two pilots sue everyone in sight and: 1. Make a killing so they will have enough moo-la they don't have to work again. 2. Or get FAA to clear them for flight again. The tort system has absolutely no control or influence over the FAA. George Patterson The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist is afraid that he's correct. James Branch Cavel |
#16
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Yeah, the monthly aviation legal columns in AOPA Pilot covered this a few
months back. The pilot had been out to dinner with friends, decided to RON instead of going home that night. Had some drinks, but wanted to go back out to the airport and move the plane to a different spot. Went off the taxi way and got stuck. Didn't even qualify as an accident. Somebody caught the alcohol on him and wrote him up. The FAA pulled his ticket and the NTSB upheld it. Dave Reinhart Big John wrote: Pilots did NOT fly. Can they be hung for intent? If so, I know a bunch of Democrats that would be in jail for their thoughts on GW. I'll bet a good lawyer can get them off. If they had let then take off then they would have been flying under the influence but 'push back'???? Even if they taxied the plane, is there any rule that says they have to be sober to do so??? Looks like a good pro bono case for some lawyer to make his bones. Big John Would you pour me one for the road please? On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:00:29 -0500, Edward Todd wrote: Florida cannot prosecute pilots http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/08/05/pi...ing/index.html |
#17
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On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:02:06 -0700, "Tom S." wrote:
Double jeopardy? No. That's not it. The double jeopardy clause doesn't prevent separate state and federal prosecutions. Mark Kolber APA/Denver, Colorado www.midlifeflight.com ====================== email? Remove ".no.spam" |
#18
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David (and others)
I'll be darn. Learn something every day. If I drink I let my desiganted driver drive. If I had to reposition, I guess I could let her do it with me sitting there tellng her what to do? Wonder if that would satisfy the FAA and teh busy bodies? Big John I'm assuming this was as GA bird and not a commercial aircraft from posted text? On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 22:33:21 GMT, David Reinhart wrote: Yeah, the monthly aviation legal columns in AOPA Pilot covered this a few months back. The pilot had been out to dinner with friends, decided to RON instead of going home that night. Had some drinks, but wanted to go back out to the airport and move the plane to a different spot. Went off the taxi way and got stuck. Didn't even qualify as an accident. Somebody caught the alcohol on him and wrote him up. The FAA pulled his ticket and the NTSB upheld it. Dave Reinhart Big John wrote: Pilots did NOT fly. Can they be hung for intent? If so, I know a bunch of Democrats that would be in jail for their thoughts on GW. I'll bet a good lawyer can get them off. If they had let then take off then they would have been flying under the influence but 'push back'???? Even if they taxied the plane, is there any rule that says they have to be sober to do so??? Looks like a good pro bono case for some lawyer to make his bones. Big John Would you pour me one for the road please? On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:00:29 -0500, Edward Todd wrote: Florida cannot prosecute pilots http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/08/05/pi...ing/index.html |
#19
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Big John wrote in message . ..
Our tort system may well grab this episode and the two pilots sue everyone in sight and: 1. Make a killing so they will have enough moo-la they don't have to work again. 2. Or get FAA to clear them for flight again. Well, I don't think the tort system has much influence over the FAA. I could be wrong of course. I do think that the tort system is likely to involve a jury trial, and finding 6 good citizens with tuppance of sympathy for two sloshed airline pilots has a probability near zero. I could be wrong about that too, of course. I wasn't making judgements, just pointing out what could happen. (What did that old broad get for spilling McDonalds coffee in her crotch?) Not as much as the original award. $160,000 plus 2.7 mill punitive (2 days coffee sales for Micky D's), but that was reduced during a "secret settlement". So no one knows. BTW, when I read the actual facts of that case (see http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm for example) vs. the media fluffing about it, I personally saw it differently. 1) McDonalds ordered its stores to maintain coffee at 185 degrees 2) A liquid at this temperature will cause complete (3rd degree) burns in 2 to 7 seconds 3) Normal coffee, including other restaurants, is 135-155 degrees 4) McDonalds had more than 700 previous claims of people seriously burnt by their coffee 5) McDonalds had calculated it cost less to settle such claims while boosting coffee sales by selling the hottest coffee 6) Liebeck, the name of the woman in question, originally sought to settle for $20,000 (essentially, medical expenses plus additional therapy and care) and McDonald's refused. Bad move. If I'd been on that jury, I would have hung McDonald's up, based upon what I perceive as a calculated decision to place profits above a known, documented, verifiable risk of serious harm PLUS a refusal to settle for a reasonable amount with a customer who was unquestionably seriously injured (6% surface) But then, I've seen 3rd degree burns and their treatment Aside: I once cleared the room at a t-giving dinner. A roommate had spent hours preparing a Chinese-style steamed turkey. I was young, dumb, and fresh from an EMT lecture on burn treatment. I was also a vegetarian . I looked at the table and thoughtlessly remarked "Oh! Looks just like 3rd degree burn flesh!" For some reason, the cook seemed to think *I* was the turkey, and he was plenty steamed, at me. And the lawyer says they were taxing to check out the brake system at which time they would decide to fly or return for maintenance. Maintenance personnel (not pilots) often taxi planes on the ground (if checked out in taxiing). If one of these had been drinking what FAA rule says they can't taxi with no intent to fly, only reposition bird on airport? Well, I believe taxiing is held to be "acting as a required crew member" somehow, and at least one pilot has had his ticket pulled for repositioning his plane w/out any intent to fly, while inebriated. Seem to recall something in AOPA Pilot about this. Cheers, Sydney |
#20
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"Big John" wrote in message I'll be darn. Learn something every day. If I drink I let my desiganted driver drive. If I had to reposition, I guess I could let her do it with me sitting there tellng her what to do? Wonder if that would satisfy the FAA and teh busy bodies? If you need to tell her what to do, she's probably not qualified to do it on her own? Sounds like a) leaving someone unqualified at the controls without qualified (crewmember) supervision - probably a violation of some other reg, or b) you're a crew member anyway. Best thing is to just push/pull/drag it. |
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