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#11
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ethanol question
"Dick" wrote in message news:Hre4k.2$2_.1@trnddc01... Jim, What's the problem?? I did do some net research but couldn't get any download this morning from the EAA site for whatever reason and apparently made the mistake to ask here what others are doing. Do a google search, limiting it to this group. You should be able to come up with several threads, with more information that you could come up with from any one source like the EAA site. -- Jim in NC |
#12
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ethanol question
On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:43:50 -0400, "Peter Dohm"
wrote: "Dick" wrote in message news:S084k.10872$kW2.67@trnddc01... Recently my gas station placed stickers on the pumps warning it could contain up to 10% ethanol. My ride is an experimental built in 1997 with a C-85 always run on mogas. Quick research indicates 3 concerns: 1-loosens debris inside the fuel system affecting filters. 2-mixes more readily with water (hydroscopic) but can experience "phase separation" during climbs causing water to overload filter/sediment bowls. 3-can deteriorate composites, rubbers and plastics causing leaks/breakages. Leaning towards more frequent gascolator inspections for 1 and 3, but unsure on overloading a sediment bowl.... I'm wondering how others are addressing these concerns. Thanks, Dick I am not flying at the present time, and I am really annoyed by the entire "gasohol" farce. (Brief Rant) E-10 is a more expensive product, contains as little as 96 percent of the energy, is generally regarded as less stable, and is the result of purely political decisions of questionable merit! (End of Brief Rant) OTOH, since it is an experimental and you have been using MoGas all along, you are more likely to know what materials are in the fuel system--if it was mine and the problem was the tanks, I would switch immediately to AvGas and avoid idling with rich mixture during warmup and taxiing. Some assistance regarding the hoses, seals, and gakets may be as close as: 1) The auto parts store--those guys have been on the "front lines" a lot longer, or 2) The nearest hose and o-ring suppliers for aircraft--who probably have product data sheets for what the sell. This is the first that I remember hearing of "phase separation" which may just mean that I forgot. However, there is at least one obvious way to test. Get something that can produce a good suction--a "feeding syringe" from the nearest feed store might be a good choice. Then, put some E-10 gasohol in a clear glass soda bottle, connect the bottle to the feed syringe with a sturdy hose (or something similar), pull back on the plunger, and see what happens. That should give you a way to take your fuel sample from about sea level to about 18000 feet in a hurry. Obviously, you would need to add some instruments and test at various temperatures to learn what might happen over a wide range of temperatures and altitudes; but a lot of us bloviate a lot on usenet and, with some very simple testing, you should be able to get an idea of whether the whole discussion really applies to your application. Peter P.S.: A home brew test for the actual presence of ethanol was discussed on this forum a few months ago. Phase separation is temperature dependent. If the water content of the fuel is borderline at 70F and you go up 3000 feet the 54F temperature may cause the water and ethanol to drop out. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** |
#13
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ethanol question
"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk At Wow Way D0t C0m wrote in message
... "Peter Dohm" wrote in message ... "Dick" wrote in message ... This is the first that I remember hearing of "phase separation" which may just mean that I forgot. However, there is at least one obvious way to ... Phase seperation is when you add water to the gas / ethanol mix and the ethanol / water seperates out. The ammount of water required to do this depends on the ethanol concentration and the temperature - so things might be OK on the ground where it's warm... The water / ethanol mix will be too "lean" for you engine and the gasoline left behind will have a lower octane than the gasoline / ethanol blend that may or may not be adequate for your needs. -- Geoff The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate. I know that I am flagellating a dead horse; but there are a very limited munber of real solutions, and trying to substitute usenet dialog for the work and expence of a new STC is simply ot one of the real solutions--expecially since the percentage of ethanol or other oxiginate is sure to remain a moving target. 1) Obviously, as already mentioned, you can switch to Avgas. 2) Presumably, with an experimental, you can just assume the risk and "run watcha brung". 3) As discussed in several previous threads, you can precipitate the alcohol out of the fuel, separate the remaining water (resulting from the precipitation process) from the "pute" gasolene, and dispose of the contaminated alcohol and water mixture which will probably contain too much water to burn. As you just pointed out, an octane test would then be in order--although I suspect that the fuel will remain well above the requirement for a C-85 engine. I also have my doubts whether the resulting fuel will be below the rating originally shown on the pump--mainly because I strongly suspect that the ethanol is simply added to the existing fuel on an "as available" basis. 4) The most correct solution is to recruit enough a sufficient user group at the airport, and possibly at several nearby airports as well, to guarrantee sufficient usage justify fuel deliveries to the FBOs and also stocking of the additional fuel type by those FBOs. Unless there are currently unused tanks at self service pumps, that would probably also mean a substantial investment by the user group to purchase the needed equipment for the FBOs. It is not just that that the FBOs probably can not afford or justify the expense; but the phrasing of the original post suggests that the local FBOs are not strangers to the problem of off-airpost price shopping. IMHO, based on what I have seen and heard in my own local area, solution no. 4 will not happen; solutions 2 and 3 are problematic and probably unacceptable; and that leaves the switch to AvGas--simply because the users lack the understanding and resolve to support their FBOs in any other way. Peter |
#14
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ethanol question
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote in message ... Phase separation is temperature dependent. If the water content of the fuel is borderline at 70F and you go up 3000 feet the 54F temperature may cause the water and ethanol to drop out. Why is this not a problem in cars? They can see a considerable temperature swing between night and day, and I have yet to see a problem caused by ethanol. (Not to say it has never happened, it is just not on my radar screen. Educate me.) Vaughn |
#15
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ethanol question
My thanks to the group for helping. This morning I was able to access
www.EAA.org/autofuel and am on the way to developing my plan of action. Dick |
#16
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ethanol question
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:23:31 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote: clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote in message .. . Phase separation is temperature dependent. If the water content of the fuel is borderline at 70F and you go up 3000 feet the 54F temperature may cause the water and ethanol to drop out. Why is this not a problem in cars? They can see a considerable temperature swing between night and day, and I have yet to see a problem caused by ethanol. (Not to say it has never happened, it is just not on my radar screen. Educate me.) Vaughn It happens. However, MOST cars on the road today have SEALED fuel systems, so condensation is not a major issue. I know of NO aircraft with sealed fuel suystems. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** |
#17
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ethanol question
Perhaps rather than sitting in front of the computer knocking MOGAS
for no longer being a cheap alternative to 100LL, we might actually start educating ourselves and experimenting on how to make gasahol or even E85 work in an aircraft. A quick web search turned up this project: http://www.age85.org/. If there's going to be a new and viable alternative to 100LL, somebody is going to have to either find or invent one. Or you could just learn to hang-glide. (did I say that out loud???) Harry Frey gliders n' stuff |
#18
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ethanol question
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote in message ... On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:23:31 GMT, "Vaughn Simon" wrote: Why is this not a problem in cars? They can see a considerable temperature swing between night and day, and I have yet to see a problem caused by ethanol. (Not to say it has never happened, it is just not on my radar screen. Educate me.) My point is that perhaps we need to be learning from taking a long hard look at our cars. If cars can be made to run reliably on a gas-ethanol blend, than so can airplanes, I see no big differences. If differences exist, they have nothing to do with temperature changes at altitude, since cars see similar temperature swings without apparent problems. I see no insurmountable difficulties in retrofitting at least many of our planes to sealed gas caps and installing a different venting system to the tanks (if that is what it takes). Nothing in aviation is cheap and I don't predict that this would be, but it may beat being grounded. Vaughn |
#19
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ethanol question
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 22:03:26 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote: clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote in message .. . On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:23:31 GMT, "Vaughn Simon" wrote: Why is this not a problem in cars? They can see a considerable temperature swing between night and day, and I have yet to see a problem caused by ethanol. (Not to say it has never happened, it is just not on my radar screen. Educate me.) My point is that perhaps we need to be learning from taking a long hard look at our cars. If cars can be made to run reliably on a gas-ethanol blend, than so can airplanes, I see no big differences. If differences exist, they have nothing to do with temperature changes at altitude, since cars see similar temperature swings without apparent problems. I see no insurmountable difficulties in retrofitting at least many of our planes to sealed gas caps and installing a different venting system to the tanks (if that is what it takes). Nothing in aviation is cheap and I don't predict that this would be, but it may beat being grounded. Vaughn The difference is, when your airplane stalls due to bad gas 5 miles from home you can't just pull over to the side of the road and walk home. Can it be done? Most definitely. However, I think ethanol, particularly in its North American guise, is NOT the (an) answer. As a retrofit, most planes would loose half their load carrying capacity if the heavier pressurizeable fuel tanks large enough to give the same range were installed. You need 50% more fuel for starters, and tanks that won't bulge/split/collapce under changing pressures - and they need to be tollerant of both the alcohol and the water that is inescapably part of the mix. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** |
#20
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ethanol question
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote in message ... On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 22:03:26 GMT, "Vaughn Simon" wrote: My point is that perhaps we need to be learning from taking a long hard look at our cars. If cars can be made to run reliably on a gas-ethanol blend, than so can airplanes, I see no big differences. If differences exist, they have nothing to do with temperature changes at altitude, since cars see similar temperature swings without apparent problems. I see no insurmountable difficulties in retrofitting at least many of our planes to sealed gas caps and installing a different venting system to the tanks (if that is what it takes). Nothing in aviation is cheap and I don't predict that this would be, but it may beat being grounded. Vaughn The difference is, when your airplane stalls due to bad gas 5 miles from home you can't just pull over to the side of the road and walk home. Can it be done? Most definitely. However, I think ethanol, particularly in its North American guise, is NOT the (an) answer. As a retrofit, most planes would loose half their load carrying capacity if the heavier pressurizeable fuel tanks large enough to give the same range were installed. You need 50% more fuel for starters, and tanks that won't bulge/split/collapce under changing pressures - and they need to be tollerant of both the alcohol and the water that is inescapably part of the mix. There is no question regarding the fact that the ethanol solution as a farse and a fraud, and there is also no doubt that it is less efficient. But you certainly do not need 50% more fuel--the worst number that I have heard is 10% and simple chemistry suggests a worst case of 4% if the maximum dilution of 10% ethanol is used. Further, there is considerable doubt that automotive fuel tanks are presurized in any meaningfull way--from all that I have heard, they have sealed filler caps and any "breathing" occurs through the evaporative emission controller. OTOH, crank induction two stroke engines are another matter. There are already intollerant of premixing the oil too far in advance and, from all I have heard, the addition of ethanol adds fuel system clogging to the problems. That sounds like really bad Mojo! The biggest problems, other than certification, are probably: 1) A lot of fiberglass fuel tanks were allegedly marginal with straight gasolene, and are untested with E10. 2) Long term storage of E10 may untested, in documented and controlled testing, and the oil companies supposedly don't attempt to store E10--instead any ethanol is allegedly added as a final step prior to retail delivery. The horror stories that I have heard, involving 4 stroke engines, have involved lawn and garden equipment which sat idle for long periods. Personally, I really doubt that it is a big problem in the case of frequent use with filler caps in good condition. But, at this time, I think it makes more sense to buy Avgas whenever undiluted Mogas is not currently available from the FBO. Peter |
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