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#11
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In message , robert
arndt writes Tom is starting up again with his pro-Iranian BS. Well Tom, say what you will but history proves you wrong time after time. The Israelis have both the will to fight total war and the arsenal to win it. ....for as long as the US keeps signing the cheques. -- When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite. W S Churchill Paul J. Adam |
#13
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On 10 Jul 2003 05:26:44 -0700, Tom Cooper wrote:
I pointed at the fact that many here - and obviously this includes you too - think that "striking Bushehr = ending eventual Iranian projects on the topic of nuclear weapons" But doesn't Iran need Bushehr to produce plutonium? Without it, they lose the cabability fro a hime-produced bomb, don't they? (Although I suppose they might be able to buy fissile material from another country.) -- Phil "If only sarcasm could overturn bureaucracies" -- NTK, commenting on www.cabalamat.org/weblog/art_29.html |
#14
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"phil hunt" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
. .. On 10 Jul 2003 05:26:44 -0700, Tom Cooper wrote: I pointed at the fact that many here - and obviously this includes you too - think that "striking Bushehr = ending eventual Iranian projects on the topic of nuclear weapons" But doesn't Iran need Bushehr to produce plutonium? Without it, they lose the cabability fro a hime-produced bomb, don't they? (Although I suppose they might be able to buy fissile material from another country.) _That_ is the point: it does not. The reactors at Bushehr stand in no connection to any kind of eventual Iranian capability to produce plutonium: they will be (or already are) perfectly capable to do so without the facilities at Bushehr. LWRs are not ideal for that task any way, as their plutonium-output is too slow: on the contrary, MTRs and gas-centrifuges are. But, the Iranians do not have any MTRs, and their centrifuges are somewhere else but in Bushehr. All that is left that they need is the source: given that they opened their first Uranium mine earlier this year, this question was obviously solved. One of the basic lessons from what happend to the Iraqis at Tuweitha, on 30 September 1980, and 7 June 1981 was: do not concentrate all your facilities at one place. Given that the Iranians were one of the parties that destroyed Tuweitha, and that they have certainly learned that lesson, I wonder how can anybody believe that - after the Iraqis attacked the place for seven times, between 1984 and 1988 - the Iranians would "nevertheless" concentrate all their nuclear-research facilities (and especially those directly connected to eventual work on nuclear weapons) at one place, and that again in Bushehr? Tom Cooper Co-Author: Iran-Iraq; War in the Air, 1980-1988 http://www.schifferbooks.com/militar...764316699.html Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585 |
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"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ...
In message , robert arndt writes Tom is starting up again with his pro-Iranian BS. Well Tom, say what you will but history proves you wrong time after time. The Israelis have both the will to fight total war and the arsenal to win it. ...for as long as the US keeps signing the cheques. What check did they sign in 1948? And FYI, aid is not a one way street. Israel has gathered both intelligence and foreign weapon systems that has been invaluable to the US for decades- far beyond any monetary value. There is MORE than one reason we support the Jewish State and it isn't just because of the Jews here in America... so don't use that old line about check-writing. Besides, Israel doesn't ask our permission to protect its national security or its citizens. Recall Entebbe, the Iraqi reactor, Gerald Bull's assassination, Lebanon, and the current intifada. Israel doesn't play games- period. The fact that Israel sat out ODS is because none of the Scuds had CB warheads. If just one did then Israel would have struck back regardless of US assurances. OIF didn't require an Israeli effort to remain neutral. Israel warned both Syria and Iran well in advance not to attempt any secondary war against the Jewish State or face the consequences. Notice how they did nothing, as usual... except denounce Israel. Right now, Israel's economy is suffering and the international pressure to make peace with the terrorist Palestinians is unbearable. But Israel retains its tough stance and the US is firmly on Israel's side despite frequent administration "concerns" over the conflict. I support Israel and the IDF and don't mind at all giving aid to the Israelis. The day we stop aiding Israel will be detrimental to the US. Judgement on the US is already happening since 9/11. Cutting Israel off would be far worse. It would be seen in Arab eyes as weakness on our part and a signal that terrorism does pay in the long run. President Bush won't allow that to happen and neither would any Republican administration. Rob Supporter IFCJ, FIDF, RNC |
#16
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"Rob van Riel" wrote in message om... "Ulf Jørgensen" wrote in message ... The Israelis have their own ballistic missiles. Jericho 2 have an alleged range of 1500-2000 km which means there is no need to overfly any country. And those missles don't have to travel through anyone's airspace? I think the response to such a launch would be just as furious as that to a strike package flying over. Rob I disagree. What can USA/Iraq or anyone else do to stop a ballisitic missile in flight??? Absolutely nothing!! They can of course, afterwards, file a protest to the Israeli ambassador. Whereas if the Israelis would overfly Iraq or Saudi-Arabia there is a much bigger chance of detection; and of it being either shot down or forced to land. I think such an action would create a lot more anger than a missile launch. Ulf |
#17
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"robert arndt" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
om... "Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ... In message , robert arndt writes Tom is starting up again with his pro-Iranian BS. Well Tom, say what you will but history proves you wrong time after time. The Israelis have both the will to fight total war and the arsenal to win it. ...for as long as the US keeps signing the cheques. What check did they sign in 1948? Well, Washington was the first state to recognize Israel as independent - which was, BTW, against a UN resolution... And FYI, aid is not a one way street. Israel has gathered both intelligence and foreign weapon systems that has been invaluable to the US for decades- far beyond any monetary value. So what? As if the US haven't got much intel anywhere else? (In Iran, just for example, which was far more important for the USA in the context of the Cold War). The USA could have gathered far more intel for far less cost almost anywhere else. Don't forget that such institutions like "Foreign Technology Divisions" (the name from the 1980s) exist since the WWI.... There is MORE than one reason we support the Jewish State and it isn't just because of the Jews here in America... so don't use that old line about check-writing. [chuckle]... Besides, Israel doesn't ask our permission to protect its national security or its citizens. That's right. Israel doesn't cares about anything - not even really Israel. During the 1980s the Israeli were selling US-high-tech to Iran. During the 1990s to China... Recall Entebbe, the Iraqi reactor, Gerald Bull's assassination, Lebanon, and the current intifada. Israel doesn't play games- period. So, and all the others "play games"? I guess the US G.I.s in Iraq wouldn't share your opinion... The fact that Israel sat out ODS is because none of the Scuds had CB warheads. No, but because the Israeli gov was said to sit down and shut up. If just one did then Israel would have struck back regardless of US assurances. [caugh & chuckle] Yeah, and spoil everything the USA were actually doing for Israel... Israel warned both Syria and Iran well in advance not to attempt any secondary war against the Jewish State or face the consequences. Has anybody asked Israel for its opinion? Haven't you ever noticed that these countries have also warned Israel, or are you always absent when such news were reported? Is the whole world turning around Israel, or only the Middle East - in your opinion? Notice how they did nothing, as usual... except denounce Israel. Well, several posts above you complained about the Iranians building a bombs. Besides, I haven't heard about any official communique either from Tehran or Damasucs where they explained they will not support the Palestinians or their terrorists against Israel any more. Perahps you can decide now if they are doing nothing, or at least something (especially as opposed by 99% of the "Arab" and "Muslim" world)? Right now, Israel's economy is suffering and the international pressure to make peace with the terrorist Palestinians is unbearable. Israel's own guilt. But Israel retains its tough stance and the US is firmly on Israel's side despite frequent administration "concerns" over the conflict. We'll join and sing a poem in that name. I support Israel and the IDF and don't mind at all giving aid to the Israelis. That's your full right: after all, you're living in a democracy. The day we stop aiding Israel will be detrimental to the US. Judgement on the US is already happening since 9/11. Cutting Israel off would be far worse. It would be seen in Arab eyes as weakness on our part and a signal that terrorism does pay in the long run. Of course. The USA would probably go down... President Bush won't allow that to happen and neither would any Republican administration. Nor will he be a President forever. One like Reagan, and Israel would be far more carefull about what its actions... BTW, Robert, you still owe me all the answers to my open quesitons. Somehow I still don't see where I was "spreading pro-Iranian BS", or the "history proves me wrong time after time"? Tom Cooper Co-Author: Iran-Iraq; War in the Air, 1980-1988 http://www.schifferbooks.com/militar...764316699.html Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585 |
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#19
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In message , robert
arndt writes "Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ... ...for as long as the US keeps signing the cheques. What check did they sign in 1948? I was more thinking of the last thirty years. And FYI, aid is not a one way street. Israel has gathered both intelligence and foreign weapon systems that has been invaluable to the US for decades- far beyond any monetary value. I'm sure the crewmen of the LIBERTY would gladly agree about the Israeli contribution to US intelligence. There is MORE than one reason we support the Jewish State and it isn't just because of the Jews here in America... so don't use that old line about check-writing. Why not? Look at the 1973 war, and events subsequent: Israel has learned a deep dependency on the US. Losing lots of aircraft? Call the US for an emergency airlift. Losing a war? Get the US to help. Economic trouble? Persuade the US to increase aid. Israel used to be a lot more self-sufficient, but times changed. Besides, Israel doesn't ask our permission to protect its national security or its citizens. Yes, I noticed. The fact that Israel sat out ODS is because none of the Scuds had CB warheads. Israel sat out ODS because the US applied a mixture of threats and bribery: Israeli retaliation would have destroyed the coalition the US and its allies depended on for action against Hussein. If just one did then Israel would have struck back regardless of US assurances. And that would have got the US thrown out of its Arab bases, with no Israeli replacements, leaving Hussein in possession of Kuwait (and most of his WMD, which were much more real then) Not exactly a long-term winning strategy, which is why Israel didn't follow it. OIF didn't require an Israeli effort to remain neutral. Israel warned both Syria and Iran well in advance not to attempt any secondary war against the Jewish State or face the consequences. Notice how they did nothing, as usual... except denounce Israel. And continue to support assorted terrorist organisations. Right now, Israel's economy is suffering and the international pressure to make peace with the terrorist Palestinians is unbearable. But Israel retains its tough stance and the US is firmly on Israel's side despite frequent administration "concerns" over the conflict. Time will tell how this one plays out. I support Israel and the IDF and don't mind at all giving aid to the Israelis. The day we stop aiding Israel will be detrimental to the US. Judgement on the US is already happening since 9/11. Cutting Israel off would be far worse. It would be seen in Arab eyes as weakness on our part and a signal that terrorism does pay in the long run. President Bush won't allow that to happen and neither would any Republican administration. I think you may find yourself disappointed. Nobody's likely to cast Israel to the wolves, but there's significantly less "Israel, right or wrong" sentiment to be had. Rob Supporter IFCJ, FIDF, RNC -- When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite. W S Churchill Paul J. Adam |
#20
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In message - DAN
writes: Arie Kazachin wrote: Such increadible missions like attacking an Iraqi reactor or freeing hostages from Enthebbe look very "sexy" but they have a drawback: they can only be done once. Not to mention that the flight path through to Iran has become a long more complicated, politically, in the last 3 months... DAN The last 3 months isn't the issue. The issue are the 22 years that passed since the Iraqi reactor destruction: long enough for Iran, Lybia and others to prepare for such an attack and to bury important things deep enough. ************************************************** **************************** * Arie Kazachin, Israel, e-mail: * ************************************************** **************************** NOTE: before replying, leave only letters in my domain-name. Sorry, SPAM trap. ___ .__/ | | O / _/ / | | I HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO !!! | | | | | | | /O\ | _ \_______[|(.)|]_______/ | * / \ o ++ O ++ o | | | | | \ \_) \ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \_| |
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